James_Douglas

Hi Guys, Oil in the water. No water in the oil. There are no oil galleries above the centerline of the camshaft bearing bores in a flathead six. Someplace, under pressure, oil is being pushed into the cooling system. The cooling system was cleaned very well. We had the head off, the pump off, the pan off, and the manifolds. No visible problems anyplace on the block we could see. I pulled the valves and did not see anything in the intake or exhaust ports, but this is not of much concern as the oil never gets close to those. Water yes, oil no. If you look at the attached, you will see the oil path. One thing I was thinking, short of taking the engine out, is to drain the water out. Put a pre-oiler on the car. Run pressurized oil with the dye in it and then use a bore scope through some of the engine head bolt holes to look down into the water jacket and see if I can spot the problem spot. If I am lucky and the hole/crack is BEFORE the main bearing oil gallery I can make a sleeve and tap it in. If it is after the main oil gallery (at a 90 degree angle down) then the crankshaft would have to come out to drill a hole up into the sleeve. In that case, then I may as well just toss the block and build a fresh one. James

Thanks for the kind words everyone. What a PITA this is. I strongly suspect that the latent water in the bottom of the cooling jacket must have found a porous spot. When sitting for 40 years it probably rusted just little hole down into the oil gallery. If you look at the attached photo, you will get the idea. I will toss a blanket on it and think about it in a month or so. James

In this case it is oil blowing into the water system. I have confirmed with Phosphorescent Dye that oil is in fact getting into the water cooling system on my 1949 Desoto. What really stinks is the engine is running real well. If I keep running it however, I can see a repeat of last month with the oil emulsion getting into the head and creating hot spots which lead to head cracks which lead to a dead engine. After three years of restoration, this is a kick in the head. We did make it to the one show that Sondra really wanted to make. See photo. But now I am looking at the task of sourcing another engine, building it, and then trying to do a swap with a car that does not even have a paint swirl yet! I may take the car to my place out of town and toss a cover on it for a few months and not think about it. James

Can you tell me what you mean by "lotta lost power in that fluid drive" ? James

I cannot address your body/frame style as I have only Desoto's. That said, Sondra and I are planning on putting some serious miles in a few years on the big Desoto. I looked into everything from the SBC to the inline 4-5-6 Chevy/GMC engines (Vortex) of the 2000's and most things in between. The problem I kept running into was that in every case, I hade to cut up the steering, firewall, or frame to get them to transplant "Well". In a couple of instances they could be made to fit but long term maintenance and other issues would be not fun on the road away from home. I came to the conclusion that unless you want to cut up the body, frame, steering you are better off staying with the stock engine block. What I am working on, slowly, is to build a 265 Chrysler that has computerized fuel injection, a very small (4 PSI) turbo and a modern transmission with overdrive. I am looking at mating up one of several different transmissions to the stock bell housing and have not decided on which one yet. On the steering issue, I may go the Don Smith route and use a late 60's GM power steering box as it will fit my large Desoto pitman arm as they have the same spline. I am sure that the P15-D24's are not the same. But, if you dig like Don did you may find something similar. If you cut the column and fix it to the dash and have a set of joints on the way to the box, odds are in a head on the joints will fail and you will not suffer the "spear in the chest" problem. You can get an adaptor plate from Wilcap today that will put a GM trans behind the flathead. I want to try and use the stock bell housing. If not, I will go the Wilcap route. My point is that you can have your cake and eat it too if you are willing to take some time and think through a serious "upgrade" to the flathead six. The one engine/trans I would like to know about in these engine bays is the early slant 6. Will they fit without cutting the firewall, inner fenders, or anything else? Good luck. James

It really does...know anyone sitting on some 265 short blocks ? :-) James

I static time all my engines the way Don does every time. I run a Phillips head screw driver down the hole in # 6 and make sure the crank pointer is really at TDC, then I do as Don does. Works every time. James

Update: Well, We just got in from the 59th Annual Hillsborough Concours d’Elegance. The 1949 Desoto Convertible made it. After the saga for a month and a half trying to find out why the car was cutting out...and finally coming to the conclusion that it was a cracked cylinder head. It was nice to take it out for a drive. We still do not know if the problem was due to the head in its entirety. I used TSP, auto parts cleaner, and lots of water to flush the cooling system. But, there is still some residue and so it will take several weeks to a month of driving and checking to see if I am still getting oil in the cooling system. With a good head, that was not milled, all the cylinders came up at 80PSI +/- 5. The car runs good, although at max RPM like 3500+ it is cutting out a bit. May or may not be a related problem. The car showed well at Hillsborough although since it is not quite done it did not win anything. The next few weeks will tell if there is a crack in the block. If that is the case, then I will source a 265 and rebuild it for the 9 passenger 1947 Desoto and take that 251 and put it in the convertible. Wish me luck. James

David, I have not built a hitch yet for my two Desoto's. However, when we had the body off the frame on the '49 CV we removed the rear cross member which is nothing more than a place to bolt the body to and keep the rear frame rails at the correct distance apart. If has no structural purpose. What we did was to add a box plate as the boxing of the frame does not go all the way back on Desoto. We then took some thick wall square tubing and welded that in place of the original rear cross member. That tube has 4 holes in it that had thick wall steel tubes welded into them. No crush on the tube when hitch mounted. The cardboard mock up for the hitch "slips" from underneath over the rear cross member and bolt through them both with 1inch bolts. It them has a tube perpendicular to it running to the rear that the ball hitch goes into. Where this tube crosses under the rear bumper there is a steel plate that goes up behind the bumper brackets. It has a long narrow steel plate that follows the spring steel brackets and bolts to them with long bumper bolts. The idea is to triangulate from the bumper brackets to the frame on both sides. As we all know the bumper brackets run along the frame toward the front of the car past the rear cross member. With the frame boxed, the rear cross member redesigned, and the triangulation, I figure I can tow to the limit of what the flathead six can pull. James

You really should go over to the Imperial site and read up. http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/023/index.htm James

I suspect that on any one particular engine that it would run a little hotter with the modern replacement thermostat as some amount of water is going to bypass the radiator. However, it may be a difference without any distinction as the amount may or may not be noticeable. It does seem that Chrysler thought that having the bypass open all the time was not a good idea however as evidenced in the write up I found on the Imperial site. James

Hi Don, That is what I am talking about. The new ones send a % of the water around in a circle. The original MOPAR versions closed off the by pass when the thing is full open. I noted some "vintage" Harrison versions that just used holes so the by-pass was always open like the new ones. If you look around ebay you can see all the different versions. What are you thoughts on the different versions from a circulation and cooling view point? Best, James

I wanted to hear what people think of the new thermostat's that one can get from places like NAPA versus the original style thermostat's. The original style thermostat when it opened closed off the bypass ports. The new style ones with the brass adaptor do not. What we get with the new ones is a constant percentage of the water NOT going through the radiator. With the original versions all of the water goes through the radiator when the thermostat was fully open. I would like to hear what people think of this difference. Best, James

There are all kinds of options on brakes. On my 1947 Desoto 9 Passenger I have disc up front with stock rear. No power. I use the stock Master Cylinder with a remote fill. I do recommend however that you change over to Russell Racing DOT approved flexible hoses in place of the rubber ones. I have had NAPA hoses with six months on them develop a bulge. Scary on a single master cylinder set up. To change you need an flare to AN adaptor on each end of each line. Russell makes those as well. I use a remote fill on the firewall to keep and eye on the fluid without having to take up the carpet. Tilton Racing makes a plastic one you can see through. On my 1949 I did a 4-wheel disc set up with the 1990 Cad-Eldorado rears with a integral e-brake and a midland-ross remote power brake booster in the trunk. I used the stock master cylinder with a 1950 Chrysler power brake pedal. This set up works almost too well. It can in a panic stop at 60 MPH send you through the windshield if you do not hang on! It all comes down to what you want. James

Dave, in the end you may be correct. However, this is a "known" engine. It was rebuilt in 1964 by Automotive Engineering, driven by my mother for a couple of years, then sat in the garage in Sebastopol, CA. That garage never saw below 35F. Then in 1970 the car was sold to a collector across town. He pickled it and stored it until I got it back 36 months ago. The water was drained. Given that it was in indoor storage in the same town and it gest below 32F only for a couple of hours once or twice a year if at all, something odd is going on. The block is completely clear (save the oil) and the water distribution tube is perfect. There is little to no rust in this block. It looks better than any I have seen, that is why this is a real mystery. At this point it is about a days work to put another head on and see what happens. It is a week or two work to pull the engine put it back with a few weeks waiting for it to be rebuilt or a replacement rebuilt. I think I will stick it back together and see what happens. I will monitor the water every time I run it. If any oil starts to show up then I will park it and start looking for a replacement engine to rebuilt. At least if I can move it under its own power I can move it around. Here in SF I have very little space as some on this forum can attest from their visits. James

I did not pull the core plugs as there is no way in a 1949 (smaller engine bay) to get them back in without taking the block out. I did however pull out the drain cock and with the head off was able to check the water jacket. Other than the oil, everything is clear. Keep in mind that the block was cleaned out well 1500 miles ago when I had the engine on the floor. This engine on the inside is one of the cleanest I have ever seen for a used flathead six.

Update July 3rd. What a F&$#ing mess. The oil in the water created a perfect emulsion and coated like a pasty glue everything inside the cooling system. I spent all day taking everything apart and cleaning it. The intake-exhaust manifold was removed. There was no sign that the unit as not sealing. We have no idea what caused the heat up in the rear 3 cylinders the heat coloring is worst on # 6 and gets less on #5 and less again on #4. What the hell is the root cause? My choices at this point are" 1. To to mill the manifold to make sure it is ok, put the replacement head on and put everything back and try it. OR 2. Pull the hood and everything else and pull the engine and take it all apart. The block would have to not only be magnafluxed but pressure tested in the oil galleries and then rebuild the whole thing. Time to get a drink and ponder. James

Well, It just get uglier and uglier. With the head off, I spent the morning cleaning everything. The cylinder is junk and there may be a crack in the block. See the photos. My machinist looked at the head and confirmed what I already new. The odd thing is that nobody can figure out how the head got hot. The head had been milled you can still see the cuts in it. The cylinder with the worst coloring is also the spot at which the bulb goes in for the temp gauge. We tested the gauge with a pot of water and a calibrated instant read thermometer. It is within a 3 degrees at 190F. So, how the hell did the head get discolored. If you look close you can see the cracks. I have two old heads I need to pull. Take a look at the block photo. This is between 7 & 8. If you look close it looks like a hairline crack between the cooling passage and the valve seats. May cause a problem or may not. James

Interesting idea. Numbers 3 & 4 may have gotten water in them and caused issues with the rings...then then I torqued the heads some months back, remember some oil in the water when she was first driven, then went away with the re-torque? Perhaps the water in the oil got stopped by the re-torque, but the leak stayed from the cylinder to the water jacket. Then as you point out the pressure pushed the oil back into the water system. I like it. We took the plug out of the oil gallery on the side of the block and put 60 PSI in it with the head off. We had topped off the water so it was at the top of the holes in the block. When pressurized, I heard the air blow the oil back down into the pan. We did not see any bubbles of any kind in the coolant holes. Well, I guess I will clean everything well and put a new gasket. Button it up and see what happens. James

Evening update: I pulled the head. The cooling system has OIL in it. Emulsified and in the entire cooling system. Hard to tell how much, maybe a pint or so. The cylinder head and the pistons have way too much carbon on them for 1400 miles. Everything was perfectly clean when we started it up. The really big question is: How in these engines can you get oil into the water but not have any water showing up in the oil ? James

Jeff, Different car. That was the 1947 Desoto that had the carb high speed piston stick closed and ate #5 cylinder then it went lean. That car is running fine now. This car is the '49 Desoto. The engine was rebuilt by my dad in 1964 (Automotive Engineering) then the car was parked in 1966, then sold to a collector in 1970, then pulled out by me 36 months ago. When I had the engine on the floor, I took it down to the short block. Everything looked good so we cleaned it up, surfaced the head, put in all new gaskets and ran with it. James

Ok, With completely checked out distributor, the problem still happens. I took the carburetor off of the 1947 Desoto which is running fine. I put it on the '49 and the problem is still there. I pulled all the spark plugs and did a dry then wet comp test. 100-105-80-85-105 105 Wet made little difference. Now, one thing I did not mention is that I am loosing a "little" water over time. I suspected that it was the original honey core radiator weeping a little. Now, I am not so sure. I am wondering if I have a sealing problem between 3 and 4 cylinder. After lunch I will rig up an air chuck to blow into each cylinder and see if I can hear anything coming out the cooling system. I do think the head may have to come off. One frustrated guy. James

Ok, I did the valves and opened them up to .009 and .012. I check all the bolts in the engine. All are tight. Let the car sit in the driveway for 45 minutes with a towel over the front of the grill. Got it to 190F. Shut it down for 15 minutes so it can heat soak. Then started it up and started driving around the neighborhood. It has been in the low 70F here. After about 30 minutes of driving it started cutting out again. I pulled the Tip-Toe-Switch grounding wire (for the downshift) from the coil. No effect. I put a clamp on the vacuum line to the booster. No effect. I changed the Tip-Toe-Shift resistor. No effect. I took the car home and put it in the garage. Late in the day, I pulled out the distributor to check the governor weights and the vacuum advance. Once in my Sun 500 Distributor machine, the same one I used to set it up 1100 miles ago, I noticed that the points were not making their usual sound. Now keep in mind that the car started and ran fine until the problem started. No miss, strong, and the like. I shut down the machine and turned the cam to raise and open the points. They looked WAY to close. I pulled a feeler gauge of 0.020 and it would not go in. Down to 0.015 and it would not go in. Down to .010 and it would not go in. They were at .006! The next thing I noticed was that the rubbing block looked like it was 1/3 the height I would normally see. My working hypothesis is that the rubbing block pre-maturely wore down and the point gap dropped from .020 to .006. When the engine gets good and hot the expansion of the steel causes the points to close down to near closed. I went to Napa and got a new set of points and condenser and it is all set up. The thing is at 35 degrees of dwell, the lobes are within +/- 1 Degree of 60 Degrees and the mechanical and vacuum advance is on specification. I plan on pulling it out in a minute and letting it get good and hot and then taking it for another ride. James

I did not. However, I did check it for resistance, while heating it with my heat gun, and it reads ok. James

I doubt anyone other than some big truck owners load drive a flathead six with more weight that my 1947 Desoto Suburban. My engine block was acid dipped prior to rebuilding. The cooling system in it has: 1. New distribution tube. 2. New "dimple tube" radiator. 3. High efficiency (more volume) water pump. 4. 180F thermostat. 5. Six blade steel fan -dodge truck. 6. Electric 6V pusher fan on front of radiator for traffic stop and go on a switch. 7. I use Prestolite Rust Preventer 8. I use Water Wetter. 9. I DO NOT use anti-freeze. {I live in the middle of San Francisco, dumping anti-freeze or even spilling a little is not an option} 10. If I am heading to the mountains, I pour in alcohol which is good for a month or so for freezing. This car does not over heat. Even in places like Reno in July in stop and go traffic. It will heat up if in gear, on the fluid coupling, and not moving or moving very very slow like 2 MPH. I found a Chrysler Tech Bulletin that specifically says to not let a car sit in gear (with a fluid coupling) for more than 5 minutes or the engine can heat up. In bad stop and go traffic, I clutch it on a really hot day. My car works fine cooling wise.