'40 Plymouth front end anxiety

[Bob Riding]

Ok you '40 Plymouth experts/owners - Rodney Bullock, Jim Yergin , Don C, Charlie, Lou, and probably many others, I'm about to tear into the front end of my '40 Plymouth wagon, and never having done this before, I'm feeling a little apprehensive about getting it put back together correctly. I've been re-reading old threads, such as PatS's post in the Technical Archives section on "Home Made Upper and Lower Control Arm Bushing Installation Tool"

My questions:

* How much of the existing control arms, steering knuckles, king pins, tie rod ends, etc. can be cleaned, painted and reused? Mine has only surface rust, no visible damage.

* Can I just order the bushings and rubber from Roberts, Kanter, etc, or is it advisable to buy their whole front end kits? (pretty expensive, but if necessary, then OK)

* Do the '40 Plymouths need the same type of spreading tool like PatS created or is there a different process? 1940 Plymouth front ends seem to be different from all other years.

* Billy Austin had a teflon coating put on shafts and pins and polished the internal threads on the bushings (p15d24 Forum Nov '05). Is this necessary/desirable? (see his attached pic)

* Any suggestions on where to buy new shocks?

This car will be basically stock with some safety improvements (front disk brakes, dual m/c, Coker 16" radials, turn signals, etc) I am not planning on racing it! How fast do you want to go in a car made out of toothpicks anyway? I would just like it to ride as it was when new.

Any and all advice appreciated!

Thanks

Bob

[40phil41]

Hi Bob,

Glad to see you working diligently on this project. I can only contribute one small thing to your front end question. When I did my '40 Dodge I replaced everything except for the upper and lower control arms. However, once I got it on the road I discovered that the right front upper control arm had considerable wear on the threads where the camber adjusting nut fits. Thus, I had to replace that control arm with a NOS one that I found on eBay.

Oh, one other thing. Initially I replaced the front coil springs with a set provided by a local spring shop. Big mistake! Once I got all of the front end together I discovered that the front end sat way too high. I replaced these with a set out of Texas which were made for the car. Much better. Live and learn.

Phil

[Rodney Bullock]

I was very lucky when it came to my front end, It had so much mud on it that it preserved it. It took about a week of wetting and scarping. When I got to the metal it was very clean and all the rubber was like new. I did put new shocks on it(Andy Burnbaum) replaced the brake shoes and that's it. My car was used on a farm and hardly ever got driven on ashfalt. There was no play in the front end and I tried to hurt it.

[Bob Riding]

Hi Bob,

Glad to see you working diligently on this project. I can only contribute one small thing to your front end question. When I did my '40 Dodge I replaced everything except for the upper and lower control arms. However, once I got it on the road I discovered that the right front upper control arm had considerable wear on the threads where the camber adjusting nut fits. Thus, I had to replace that control arm with a NOS one that I found on eBay.

Oh, one other thing. Initially I replaced the front coil springs with a set provided by a local spring shop. Big mistake! Once I got all of the front end together I discovered that the front end sat way too high. I replaced these with a set out of Texas which were made for the car. Much better. Live and learn.

Phil

Hi Phil; I was sorry to leave the ranks of '40 Dodge owners, but really needed to sell it in order to devote my full attention to the woodie.

When you replaced the control arm, did you use any special tools?

Also how do you know if your springs needed replacing?

Thanks

Bob

[Bob Riding]

I was very lucky when it came to my front end, It had so much mud on it that it preserved it. It took about a week of wetting and scarping. When I got to the metal it was very clean and all the rubber was like new. I did put new shocks on it(Andy Burnbaum) replaced the brake shoes and that's it. My car was used on a farm and hardly ever got driven on ashfalt. There was no play in the front end and I tried to hurt it.

Thanks Rodney, Mine is more rusted than that...I will need to take it all apart

Bob

[Rodney Bullock]

I see, you are very serious. I was looking at the pic's and you have broken the whole thing down. This is the way to go! That way you address everything. When I got my car the PO had been working on it for 9 years. He had a new motor and could not fire it. He also tried to put a hemi in it and could not address the steering problem. He gave up. I took the body off the frame momentarily just to replace the little pads. I had to install the trans also as he just had it sitting in the spot. If I had more help I would have taken it completly off and did what you did, however once I removed the tank I could paint the frame and parts with ease. My car was a low mileage car because it had orignal shocks and shoes. I had been busting my knucles on a 1941 for 6 months when I said to myself there must be a better car to work if I could jusst find it, 2 days later I was taken to this guy's house and by that week end I had the 1940, alot of the parts are interchangeable with the 40-41 and the 41 proved to be a "book" that taught me how things went. After all the work was completed I sent the 41 to the kunk yard(big mistake) it was a coupe. I did strip it as much as I could keeping the trans, fenders interior,trim however I think I should have kept the rear.

[Rodney Bullock]

It took about 10 months to get to this(photo) and I was pushing it.

[Rodney Bullock]

however if you work at it everyday and set goals I am sure you won't take as long as I did , after all I have a bad back and can't half see:) I really like my car and think 1940 was one of the best years(1941 being THE BEST) one day I might own another 41 but for now I will settle for the 40:rolleyes:

[Bob Riding]

however if you work at it everyday and set goals I am sure you won't take as long as I did , after all I have a bad back and can't half see:) I really like my car and think 1940 was one of the best years(1941 being THE BEST) one day I might own another 41 but for now I will settle for the 40:rolleyes:

Great looking ride. Thanks for the info. I will get it done - I'm not in any rush.

Bob

[40phil41]

Bob,

No I did not use any special tools to replace the upper control arm. Just a lot of patience and a few cuss words :-). If I remember correctly, what I did was to insert the inner bushing shaft (for lack of the correct terminology), without the end bushings, into the control arm before bolting to the frame. One end slips in first (trick is to figure out which end) and then the other end will just make it in and then the two bushings and grease seals screw on from the outside (if that makes any sense). Then bolt to the frame. Probably can do it other ways.

When I pulled my '40 out of a field in 1968, one of the front coil springs was broken. That's how I knew :-).

Phil

[HughForrest]

I've done this on both my 38 and my 50 in the past few years. While I know it is just a marketing slogan, I believe "Do it once and do it right" makes a lot of sense. It is a few bucks more to replace all wear items now, but if it saves you having to go back into the front end a couple of years (or maybe immediately, if you're unlucky) it is more than worth it.

I bought the Kanter front end kit for the 50 and was happy with it, and with their customer service when I needed some extra kingpin parts due to my own error.

For the 38 I bought parts on ebay and saved a few bucks, but it was way more of a hassle.

Do yourself a favor and do shock mounts while you are in there. It is well worth the small additional trouble and expense. I believe Charlie sells a kit for this. Uses modern, cheap, easily available shocks too.

Don't forget to do your sway bar links and bushings while you are under there!!

[PatS....]

According to the manual, the critical thing is to have the bushings centered on the control arms.

To determine if you need the spreader, measure the spread of the control arms BEFORE removal. They should be the same upon reassembly.

I sandblasted and painted my control arms while it was all apart just to make it look purdy

[Jim Yergin]

Bob,

I did the front end on my '41 quite a few years ago. If I remember correctly I bought new bushings and control arm pivots, both upper and lower, from Mitchel Motors. This was before the internet and Mitchel Motors was a mail order catalogue. I think it was even back when the company was still doing business out of Ohio. I remember shopping for the best prices at the time. I do remember there was some problem getting a hold of the rubber grease seals that fit on the bushings. I disassembled and sandblasted all the parts before painting them. I had new king pin bushings installed in the original set-up but installed them myself when I replaced the uprights with a set from a P15 so that I could use the AAA Brakes disc kit. Those bushings, king pins and installer/reamer tool I found on e-bay.

I did not use the spreader tool but remember checking the measurements set forth in the manual when I installed the new parts. I did not have any problems. The only tricky part for me was installing the springs without the engine in place (not enough weight to compress the springs as I jacked up the lower arm). I ended up using a 2x4 to brace the upper arm against a rafter in my garage to compress the spring.

Hope this helps. I don't think you will have any problems if you do it yourself.

Jim Yergin

[Bob Riding]

Thanks Jim; I think I have the courage to tackle it now...I think the California Zin I just opened is partly to blame too. How's your front clip coming along?

Bob

[Jim Yergin]

Bob,

The painting I began in June is finally done (except for the inevitable touch ups that will be needed after installation). Long process but glad to have it done. One step closer to getting the car back on the road before my 20 year anniversary of initial purchase (October 1988).

Jim Yergin

[1940plymouth]

Bob,

When you get time, could you post some recent photos of your '40?

Sure would appreciate it

Thanks,

Bob

[Roadkingcoupe]

however if you work at it everyday and set goals I am sure you won't take as long as I did , after all I have a bad back and can't half see:) I really like my car and think 1940 was one of the best years(1941 being THE BEST) one day I might own another 41 but for now I will settle for the 40:rolleyes:

Hi Rodney,

Not trying to hijack the thread but...In the picture of your 1940 Coupe there are external trunk hinges. Just curious if in 1940 there were two styles of trunk hinge for that year. I have seen both internal and external trunk hinges on 1940 Plymouth Coupes. Have seen 1939 Plymouth's that also came with 1940 external hinges. The 39 Coupe hinges are solid and the 1940 external hinges are made up of an inner assembly and a thin "pot metal" cover. Hoping you (or anyone) can confirm the two styles were produced for the same year. (hope that doesn't sound confusing). Thanks in advance for your reply.

[1940plymouth]

P-9's had the outside hinges, the P-10's had the inside ones as far as I know

[Andydodge]

Bob,

I have an Australian built 1940 Dodge D15D sedan, which is basically a 1940 Plymouth chassis with Oz built body and Dodge grille etc. When I decided to rebuild my car a few yrs ago.........well more than a few, 1973/74(I've had it since 1971 & its been a hot rod since 1973), I replaced the original upper control arms with the later 1941-1956 style as I couldn't find a set of NOS 1940 arms........I used a set of NOS MOOG cast steel upper control arms with the 1941-56 upper inner pivot pins and bushes and installed the pin equidistant from the inner arm ends, then screwed the bushes in checking that they didn't pull the arm ends and checked the distance with the 41-56 specs in the workshop manual.

I also had the use the 41-56 upper outer adjuster pin & bushes and the original 1940 Spindle that goes between the upper & lower A arms.

As I have installed disc brakes on my car I used the later king pins and stub axles, ie 41-56 axles......everything bolts on using original mopar bolts etc and as my car has a 318 Poly V8 & Cast Iron Auto I thought using the later style upper arms was a good move as they are a stronger design........have attached a pic of the car........as you can see it shows its Plymouth parentage..................regards, andyd

[Bob Riding]

P-9's had the outside hinges' date=' the P-10's had the inside ones as far as I know[/quote']

My P9 2 dr has inside hinges...

[Bob Riding]

Bob' date='

When you get time, could you post some recent photos of your '40?

Sure would appreciate it

Thanks,

Bob[/quote']

I'm done with the mechanicals...now it's time to begin work on the cowl.

[Jim Yergin]

Bob,

Beautiful work. Thanks for posting the pictures.

Jim Yergin

[Don Coatney]

I'm done with the mechanicals...now it's time to begin work on the cowl.

It appears your transmission face is in the wrong hole and you have an extra swing arm below the pedal.

[Bob Riding]

Thanks Don, Can you elaborate?

Bob

[Don Coatney]

Thanks Don, Can you elaborate?

Bob

Bob;

Take a close look at this picture and you will see what I am talking about:D

The face has a nose and mustache and the swing arm appears to be a lefty:cool: