Cleaning Chyrsler straight 8 parts

[Daniel Jones]

Before the first snow of the season fell, we got a day that was warm enough to use the air tools and power washer outside so I spent some time cleaning Chrysler straight 8 parts.  I soaked the 324 cubic inch block with oven cleaner.  After soaking for 20 or 30 minutes, I hit it with the power washer, gave it a blow dry, and then went after it with wire brush wheels on various air tools.  I still need to chase all the threads, run the brushes through the oil passages and put the bore scope down the water distribution tube to see if it needs to be replaced.  Looks like the distribution tubes are available:

 

https://www.moparmall.com/MoPar-PN-1115296-1115302-Water-Dist-Tube-p/310-196.htm

 

At this point, the block is clean enough to the machine shop to be magnafluxed, measured for pistons, bored, honed and have the cam bearings installed.  The crankshaft will get machined, rods re-sized and the reciprocating assembly balanced at the same time.  I still need to send out the harmonic balancer(s) to be rebuilt.  Since it's neutral balance, I don't think my machinist will need the flywheel or damper for balancing but I'll ask him to be sure.  I'll replace the core plugs once it's back from machining.  Unlike other engines I've worked on, the convex core plugs go in flush with the block instead of recessed.  The block will get another power washing with soap and water before it gets painted gloss silver Imron.  I'll likely do one of the heads in gold paint like the current engine.  I'm developing a strong dislike for non-detergent motor oils.  I spent about 6 hours on a pair of oil pans and a couple of other parts.  Scraped the majority of sludge out then gave them the oven cleaner, power washer and rotary wire brush treatment followed by a wipe down with phosphoric acid and more wiring brushing.  Getting to the gunk under the baffles was the trickiest part.  Of the 6 straight 8 oil pans I have here, these are the two worst so I won't even be using them though I'll likely paint them at the same time the rest of the parts get painted just to keep them from rusting.

 

I may let the machine shop clean the next block.  It's just too much work the way I do it.  I also need to find a cheaper alternative to Evaporust so I can fill a container large enough to immerse big parts like the straight 8 cylinder heads and exhaust manifolds.  Looks like people have used molasses, citric acid, apple cider vinegar, phosphoric acid and oxalic acid.  Among those solutions, oxalic acid might give the best bang for the buck.  Electrolysis also sounds like a good option.  I need a container that will handle the width of an FE big block Ford block and the length and height of the Chrysler straight 8.  Something that size would let me do a bunch of cylinder heads or manifolds at the same time.

[Daniel Jones]

The number stamped into this particular block is C49-21267 and the cast-in number is 11153293.  C49 indicates the engine is from 1950, the last year that Chrysler installed straight 8s in automobiles.  They continued into the 1960s for marine and industrial applications.  1950 is also the only version that got hydraulic lifters, specifically Wilcox-Rich zero lash lifters, along with a matching camshaft.  As I understand it, the Chrysler Wilcox-Rich lifters have not been available for a long time and don't interchange with Wilcox-Rich lifters used in other engines of the era (e.g. Packard, Cadillac).  Also, they were individually hand-selected for fit so need to be kept in order.  I've got a full set and they've been kept in order, along with the (re-ground) valves.  I still need to figure out which of the camshafts is the matching one and study the oiling system differences (compared to the solid lifter blocks).  Given the straight weight, non-detergent, oils of the day, I'd imagine early hydraulic lifters were problematic if you didn't do regular oil changes.

 

That reminds me, last winter, my machinist picked up one of Crane's cam grinders that had been sitting neglected since 2009.  It's a Van Norman but uses the same masters and some of the Berco machines.  Apparently, the Berco is an Italian copy of the Van Norman and many parts interchange.  My machinist thinks it was working perfectly when parked but he went through it from end-to-end, including changing out the rocker table bearings.  Harvey Crane made a big deal about keeping those fresh.  Dave said his needed changing mostly from sitting around being covered in old coolant for 14 years.  I'll have him check my cam and lifters over.  If practical, I'd like to have the cam re-ground for a bit more performance.

 

It appears that all 274, 299 and 324 Chrysler straight 8s used the 9" long connecting rods and 2" compression height flat top pistons.  The difference in displacement is from the crankshaft stroke.  If that's correct, each of the blocks would have a different deck height.  I've still got a few more rods to disassemble and clean up but 4 or 5 of the rods are shorter and lighter duty than the others.  They have the CDDP (Chrysler-Dodge-DeSoto-Plymouth) logo and were fitted with smaller diameter pistons (3.125") which appear to be unique to the 1931 Chrysler CD.

 

The 9" rods carry the same part number (954429) and carry a series of what I assume are batch numbers (DF-111, 112, 113, 114, 119, 120, 124).  The caps all carry the same part number (595087).  Some of the rods carry a M3308B while the majority have M3308.  I know that some Chrysler parts with A or B after a part number indicated a different tolerance range but these are cast-in, not stamped.  I need to measure them to see if they are under or over-sized.  I've got the set that came out of the C49 324 plus enough for another set, some spares and extra caps.

 

I've got a bunch of head and manifold studs/bolts ready to go in the vibratory polisher but I think I'll clean the main cap bolts by hand since they aren't corroded.  I've been wanting to get an ultrasonic cleaner for cleaning carburetor parts so I'll look into getting one of those and use it for the rod bolts and nuts.

[Dodgeb4ya]

1311228 is the late 1950 "8" production hydraulic camshaft #.

1067202 is the std. cam #.

You most likely will never find any NOS  Chrysler eight Wilcox-Rich lifters.

I have taken these same style Dodge truck hydraulic lifters apart and carefully soaked and cleaned them with 100% sucess.

The check ball cannot leak and rate of leak down needs to match the shop manual or Wilcox instructions.

Keep all the lifter parts matched as built.

Don't mix and match.

Do not prefill them in or with oil before starting  the engine.

Let the running engine fill/ bleed them out.

Or oil prime the engine using a pressure oil priming tank to prime the engine before starting.

Make sure that the plunger is centered in the lifter body after valve machine work.

Total hydraulic plunger travel is close to .150".

So after all valve seat/face machine work you should check for approx..070"-.080" clearance between closed valve stem end and lifter plunger spring tip pushed firmly into lifter body.

This clearance spec will keep the plunger in the center of .150" hydraulic operating range. 

Few C49/C50  engines had hydraulic lifters.

Edited January 8, 2024 by Dodgeb4ya
Spell check

[Daniel Jones]

14 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

1311228 is the late 1950 "8" production hydraulic camshaft #.

1067202 is the std. cam #.

Thanks for the lifter information.  It's much appreciated.  I don't see either of those numbers on the 2 cams that I have.  One cam has 695424 and the other has a number that ends in 228 (can't yet read the first three digits).  I'll clean them up and see if there are any other numbers.

[Daniel Jones]

On 1/8/2024 at 12:41 AM, Dodgeb4ya said:

1311228 is the late 1950 "8" production hydraulic camshaft #.

1067202 is the std. cam #.

I cleaned up the camshafts.  One (the one at the back of the picture below) has a very faint 4 digits which start and end with ones followed by 228 so that matches the 1311228 for the hydraulic camshaft.  The other one carries 695424 not 1067202 but may be from an earlier Chrysler straight 8.  I measured the base circle and peak lift to be the same on both camshafts.  I'll have my machinist put them on the cam doctor to check the lobe shapes.  I'd expect the 695424 solid lifter camshaft to have clearance ramps.  The Wilcox-Rich lifters do have a crown so aren't worn flat.  The interesting thing is the two cams are clocked differently relative to the timing gear mounting bracket so I'll need to make sure not mix up the gears.  I think only the timing chains are available so you have to reuse the crank and cam gears.

[Daniel Jones]

I also cleaned up another balancer.  The thinner one on the left is from a C39 (1946 to 1948) and has two flat portions on the perimeter but is symmetric so is still neutrally balanced.  The thicker one has what appears to be a bronze hub but is magnetic.  There are no part numbers on either balancer but I believe it is from the 1950 C49 hydraulic lifter engine.  However, there are 3 damper bolts that I removed from engines so I may have another damper hiding somewhere.  The balancer that is still on the 1937 C14 is thinner than the bronze one but I've not checked it yet to see if it matches the one from the C39.  I also need to check what style the 1938 C23 has.  I plan to get two of them rebuilt.  The damper bolts take a 1 13/16" socket.  There are two bolt designs with the later one having a flat face.  The earlier ones look like they may have a provision for a hand crank?

Edited January 12, 2024 by Daniel Jones
typo

[Daniel Jones]

Oil pans all appear to be of the same design.  The one on the right was in really nice shape with no rust.  The one on the left had some rust scale which I've removed but still needs to be wiped down with phosphoric acid and Prep Sol.  It's serviceable but I think I've got three still on engines that are in better shape.

[Daniel Jones]

Cleaned up a spare set of main caps and bolts.  I need to make sure they don't get mixed up with the ones off the engine I'm rebuilding. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

NOS crank gears for straight eights are rare as hens teeth. Cam gear's same.

I have only found two crank gears in over 40 years.

There are two types  of chains and gears.

Morse and Whitney.

The timing chain ...Morse or Whitney denotes which crank and cam gears are used with the timing chain.

Cannot remember the differences.

695424 cam came out in the mid 30's and is used in 1939-42  eights.

That's what my 1937-42 Chrysler parts book shows. I don't have the earlier parts books.

1946-50 use the higher # sold lifter cam.

The "two flats" damper is used on all 1946-50 eights that I have ever worked on. Same style damper on DeSoto and some upper line Dodges.

The big thick damper is similar to what I have seen on 1934/35  323/385 engine Airflow's I have worked on. Cannot say It's exactly the same though.

 

[Daniel Jones]

5 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

The timing chain ...Morse or Whitney denotes which crank and cam gears are used with the timing chain.

Thanks!  Your reply forced me to root around and find the original chain and gears and I just ordered a new-old-stock Morse TC405 chain which appears to match the one that came off the 1950 engine.  I'll verify that when it arrives.  The part number on the crank gear appears to be DO7382.  The other gear is still on the crankshaft.

 

5 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

The big thick damper is similar to what I have seen on 1934/35  323/385 engine Airflow's I have worked on.

I have a vague memory of removing that balancer years ago when my brother inherited the 1937 Imperial, though I don't recall which engine it came from.  I cleaned and had the fasteners replated including the damper hub bolt.  The flat damper bolt and thin damper is the one I took off yesterday.  That leaves a spare damper bolt (identical to the plated one) and crankshaft but I can't find the damper that would go with it.  I'm not certain I ever had it but I'll keep searching.  I found a photograph of someone else's an assembled 1936 Imperial 323.5 straight 8 with the one year only integral case overdrive transmission and it shows a thick balancer.  Do you know if the 323 pre and post-WWII crankshafts are the same part number?

 

5 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

695424 cam came out in the mid 30's and is used in 1939-42  eights.

Good to know.  This is beginning to feel like equal parts archeology and engine rebuilding.

[Daniel Jones]

I ordered a paper copy of the "Chrysler Passenger Car Condensed Master Parts List - 1935 through 1942, Issued July 1947" and a digital copy of the 1949-1950 Chrysler Factory OEM Shop Manual.  The latter came with a PDF of the 1946 to 1950 Mopar Parts Catalog ("MoPar 1954 and prior models Passenger Car Parts List").   I spent a few weeks scouring the parts entries and checking them against the casting numbers on my straight 8 parts then my hard drive failed and I lost all the data I had entered ?
I found many of my pre-WWII casting numbers referenced in the early parts book but could find few of the post-WWII casting numbers in the 1946-1950 book.  For instance, the camshaft timing gear part number does not appear, nor does any of the post WWII cylinder heads.    

 

> There are two types of chains and gears. Morse and Whitney.

 

It appears that only the Morse style chain is available ($352.47 for just the chain):

 

https://egge.com/product/timing-chain-124/

 

Specs say Morse type 40-106 with 0.5" pitch, 1.25" width and 47 links.  A new-old-stock Morse 40-106 chain for Chrysler straight 8s was advertised on Ebay for $60 so I grabbed it.  I'm not sure if my gears are Morse or Whitney and the old chain has no markings.  The Morse chain is of a different construction with more but thinner links though it seems to fit the sprocket fine.  

 

[Daniel Jones]

I moved the Chrysler straight 8 block that I had cleaned from the shop to the basement.  The ground was frozen and it's uphill and I knew I should zip tie it to the 2 wheel dolly but was pressed for time.  As I crested the top of the hill, a layer sheared off the permafrost.  I remained on my feet but the cart pulled me down the hill and dumped the block in the soil.  I rounded up a big zip tie and attempted the hill a second time.  This time, I took a couple of steps and then pulled the dolly towards me in a rowing motion.  That worked but I had to lift the dolly and block into the house as it wasn't going to roll up the step.  I cleaned the dirt off, snipped off the zip tie and lifted it onto my bathroom scale.  It may be hard to see in the photo but the bare block with main caps and bolts comes in at 288 lbs, about what one of my assembled Buick aluminum V8s weigh. 

[Daniel Jones]

A straight 8 cylinder heads weighs in at 47 pounds on my bathroom scale.  Of the six cylinder heads pictured:

 

 Four have the casting number 1314574-1 with date codes of 1-4, 4-26, 6-9 and 7-1
 One has the casting number 121447-1 with a 10-11 date code
 One has the casting number 870146 with a date code 3-23

 

870146 is from a 1937 274 cubic inch and is the one on the left hand side.  The yellow residue is left over Magnaflux powder.  I believe the rest are from 324 cubic inch engines.  If you look closely at 870146, compared to the post-WWII heads, the inboard row of holes opposite the combustion chamber are larger and 4 small holes near the far end chamber are missing.  That accounts for the differences in the pre and post-WWII headgaskets.  I still need to remove the remnants of the spark plugs and extract one of the thermostat housing bolts on the one with the 6-9 date code.  An eBay ad from Vintage Mopar Direct claims that casting numbers 121446 and 121447 are 1946-1948 heads.  One of the 1314574 heads is from the 1950 engine I'm rebuilding.  I need to check the 1938 head to see what casting number it carries. 

[Daniel Jones]

The two crankshafts pictured both carry part number 855153 (there are also $G, $I and V 48 A markings).  These are 4 7/8" stroke crankshafts from post-WWII 324 cubic inch engines and weighed in at 98 pounds.  The flanges are tapped for 8 bolts and with a bolt circle approximately 4 1/4" in diameter and a pilot diameter of ~0.9".  The parts book lists part number 855151 as 1939 to 1942 crankshafts (C23 with Fluid Drive, 1940 C26 and C27, 1941 C30 and C33, 1942 C36 and C37).  1946-1950 crankshafts are listed as 1115281.  In the pre-WWII parts book, 618623 is listed as a C19 and C23 without Fluid Drive crankshaft.   

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, Daniel Jones said:

the bare block with main caps and bolts comes in at 288 lbs,

 

Wen  was young and dumb I had a 64 300 with a 413.  When I needed to take the block to the machine shop I just picked it up and put it in the back of my Daytona.  When I got to the shop I picked it up again, carried it inside and put in on the counter.  Asked the lady where she wanted it i, she gave me an odd look and said right there is fine/  Net morning I woke up and the trapzoid muscle across my right shoulder was hollering at me.  That was in 1988, to this day if I work to hard that muscle makes itself known, lol.  I never weighed that block, but the internet tells me they weight about 220lbs.  You got a lot of cast iron in that block my friend.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Sadly last summer I scrapped out 2500 lbs of 1946-50 straight eights I've save for 35+ years. I saved the good parts.

Cranks and manifolds and couple pieces of tin.

Yep those things are heavy.

Messed with many.

[Daniel Jones]

22 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

I saved the good parts.

Would any of those parts be for sale?  I'll be building two straight 8s, one for myself and one for a friend.  I could use a post-WWII 2 barrel intake manifold and a side cover.

[Daniel Jones]

On 2/3/2024 at 12:51 PM, Sniper said:

That was in 1988, to this day if I work to hard that muscle makes itself known, lol. 

A couple of weeks before I moved that block, I decided to start weight training again after 20 years.  I'm nursing elbow damage from lifting heavy weights and doing martial arts punching drills when I was younger.  Your story is more reason for me to be extra careful as things don't heal like they used.