Front End Alignment Question..

[Cold Blue]

I replaced the tie rod ends on my 48 Plymouth Deluxe Coupe. Did a real rough alignment - then got a new set of P215/75/R15's mounted on it. My what a difference a good set of radials make! The tire shop is only 6 blocks away, so no worries about alignment in that short distance. Got her home, then did another "ball park" alignment and ran into a strange problem. Please keep in mind that this is the first time I have ever tried to do a front end alignment... My method:

 

1. Pull a taunt string parallel to the car, lengthwise, close to the tire faces. 

2. Measure at the front and back mid-point of the rear tires to the string, and adjust the string so that measurements are precisely the same.

3. Go to the front tire, and measure at front and back mid-point also. Note the distances; my driver's side was 1/2" toed-in.

4. Jack the car up on that side, get the wheel off the floor, loosen the tie rod shaft bolts, and turn the shaft a revolution or two, watching that you are going in the right direction to correct the 1/2" mis-alignment. Lower the car off the jack.

5. Measure to your string again and see if you are close. Yep! The front tire is parallel with the rear tire. Maybe off a wee bit, but close enough to get her to an alignment shop without worrying about tire wear.

 

Now go to the passenger side and repeat...here is where I ran into trouble....I found the passenger side tire was about 3/4" toed out. Jacked her up, loosen the shaft bolts, and gave the shaft a couple of turns. Lowered her, measured, but no change!!! What the...jacked her up, gave the rod a couple more turns, lowered her, measured. still no change!!! Upon close inspection at the tie rod ends I see what is happening. The rod is simply traveling up (or down) the tie rod threads, and not adjusting the toe-in....

 

I took the pass side tie rod off the car completely. Laid it on my bench, and verified that is what is happening. Oh my..what to do? Decided to align the tire using my string method, with the tie rod off, then measure center to center of the pitman arm hole and the hole at the wheel; adjust the tie rod ends to match that measurement, and reinstall. Check the string again, and I'm a 1/4" toed-out. Now what? Decided to bump the steering wheel to correct the toe out, and adjust the driver's side shaft to get it back to parallel....

 

Whew! Checking both sides, she's only a cat's whisker off on both wheels. Did I do good, or not?? I still cannot comprehend why the passenger side long rod won't adjust just like the driver's side short rod will....If anybody knows I will be forever in your debt.  Best regards, and sorry for the long post, Cold Blue.

[Tom Skinner]

Sounds like you got the toe in toe out close to correct. What about Camber?

I did my tie Rods got it close (Camber with a 2' Level and Toe in and Toe out) and went to my nearest Good Year.

An older Mechanic put it on the rack with my Camber Wrench and Finished up right with a Computer Print Out Sheet and all.

I wasn't even close. Now it rides like a new Cadillac. Only $89.

The only thing I have ever let another mechanic do on any of my cars was the front end alignments - worth every single penny

Edited April 3, 2019 by Tom Skinner

[Tom Skinner]

Also I think you just spin the whole Long Rod once the TR End Bolts are loose not one side at a time.

Go talk to a Front End Guy they are friendly Chaps when you catch them early on a Saturday Morning at opening.

Bring a box of Dohnuts L.O.L.

[Cold Blue]

Tom - the long rod won't spin at all unless both bolts are loose. I took my car to an alignment shop but ran into a problem. The new-fangled alignment tool attaches to the outside of the rear tire. Unfortunately, my P15 fenders do not have enough clearance to let the tool fasten to the tire. I have found a shop about 30 miles away that has an "old school" alignment tool that attaches to the rim, not the tire. I am going Saturday to get it aligned. I checked camber with my camber tool, and I am 1/4 degree negative, both wheels. I can adjust that, but I have to go get a 1 1/2" crow's foot wrench...

[toddb]

"I'm overhauling a 55 Coronet and need to rebuild the front end. The service manual lists a bunch of "Special Tools" that have part numbers don't match anything.  I see a lot of front end tool kits but don't know exactly which tolls I need. Any help with what tools I should have on hand when I tear into it? This is my first one and don't want to get a bunch of tools I either don't need or won't work.

 

thanks,

Todd

[Cold Blue]

I haven't rebuilt all the components of the front end on my 1948 Plymouth Special Deluxe. Just the tie rod ends and the steering box. All the other components appear to be fine. So far, I haven't needed any special tools. Just the mechanic's tools I have collected over the years. If you've got the standard wrenches, ratchets, sockets, etc, I bet you can do most all of the work. You may need a good puller? Hope this helps..

[Cold Blue]

Well, I guess no one has had the problem with the tie rod end rods that I have...I am a bit surprised that no one has. Maybe my post was too long? Maybe it was too wordy? I think I explained my problem in detail. Maybe too much detail? Sure would like to know what, if anything, I am doing wrong in aligning my car's front end. And if my post was not presented in the proper manner. Thanks!!!

[MarkAubuchon]

Need to check the bushings on the upper and lower a frames.  they may feel and look tight, but until you put a load on them you wont really know.. Just had my 47 p15 aligned.  While I thought all was good, I ended up replacing all of the bushings, one tie rod end (which was obvious) then the 4 wheel aligned it.  the alignment shop will tell you how much toe in you need.

[Cold Blue]

1 hour ago, MarkAubuchon said:

Need to check the bushings on the upper and lower a frames.  they may feel and look tight, but until you put a load on them you wont really know.. Just had my 47 p15 aligned.  While I thought all was good, I ended up replacing all of the bushings, one tie rod end (which was obvious) then the 4 wheel aligned it.  the alignment shop will tell you how much toe in you need.

Thank you Mark. How do I check the bushings on the A frames? I just replaced all of the tie rod ends. 

[MarkAubuchon]

I watched as they checked it.  lift the front end off the ground maybe 1-2 inches, he took a big pry bar and then lifted under the wheel.  any thing that's loose you will be able to see movement, king pins bushings etc.  As they explained all of the little wear points when combined add up.  Good Luck.  its worth the time and expense, because when properly aligned, with wider radial tires the ride is amazing.  Keep me posted.

[Dan Hiebert]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 9:51 AM, Cold Blue said:

Well, I guess no one has had the problem with the tie rod end rods that I have...I am a bit surprised that no one has. Maybe my post was too long? Maybe it was too wordy? I think I explained my problem in detail. Maybe too much detail? Sure would like to know what, if anything, I am doing wrong in aligning my car's front end. And if my post was not presented in the proper manner. Thanks!!!

Patience, Grasshopper.  Nothing wrong with your post or problem presentation.  Like me, many folks here won't chime in if they don't have a good answer, or at least an educated guess.  I have to go out to the shop to consult my manual to see if something was missed - which I'm hesitant to do right now since we had a good old fashioned northern Maine spring snow storm overnight that dumped 8 inches of snow that I haven't plowed, yet.  I'm intrigued for an answer myself.  Your string alignment is a good start, that's how I had to do our D24 several years ago, since none of the shops in western NY would do it.  Only good tool I had for the job was a pair of turntables (the tires still have to move freely if the car's weight is on them - perhaps something to consider with your issue?)  I've found a shop here in northern Maine that will do it, but they would have to use the string/measure method, too, no one up here has an alignment rack these old cars will fit on. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Dan Hiebert

[Dan Hiebert]

The two differences I see between your alignment procedure and that described in the service manual (I have manuals for both the P15 and D24): 1 - Weight of the car, unloaded, is supposed to be on the (level) ground.  Book doesn't specify turntables or anything, but it works easier if the tires can move freely, putting them on a few layers of newspaper works; 2 - This is where I had the same problem you note with the long tie rod, except I had the same initial results with both sides (I wrote notes in my manual, elsewise I wouldn't have remembered this - duh), loosen ALL tie rod end clamps, and adjust both at the same time in opposite directions to each other, for the proper toe-in/out, not each side separately.  I had done what you did to get the overall measurements close and center the steering wheel after I had removed and rebuilt the steering box.  Then I wanted to get the toe-in/out alignment down and stayed with trying each side separately - didn't work well until I loosened everything.  I don't remember if I figured out why it works that way, I just noted it to emphasize to myself to follow the service manual procedures next time.  That may be a bit of overkill, since you were just trying to get it close to get it to a shop.

 

This may or may not help, from the manual: "Lengthening the short tie rod moves the steering wheel center spoke to the right.  Lengthening the long tie rod moves the spoke to the left.  One full turn of the tie rod will change the front wheel position one half inch, and will move the steering wheel about three and one half inches, measured at the rim."  So, if you were turning one tie rod at a time, you were probably moving the steering wheel, not the road wheel.  When I did it one side at a time, neither wheel moved, but I was under the car and didn't notice if the steering wheel moved or not.  I re-read the procedure, had the "ah-hah" moment, then centered everything up again and started over.     

[dale]

OK.. I put on a rack and pinion so had to align the front end too.  I did the string method  by running a string along the outside of the tires and down the sides of the car until both sides were equal.  I had ground out a couple of the teeth on the steering wheel so it would go on the shaft anywhere seeing there is no turn signal canceler anyway.  Went under the car and measured the distance between tires front and back until equal.  ( book calls for zero toe-in.  Adjusted a smidge for some toe-in anyway.  1/4 inch.  Slipped on steering wheel temporarily and drove down the side road to see how far off the steering wheel was  and then made the correction for the final location.  Its really hard to find a shop that will even talk to about an alignment on cars this old....Car goes down the road like my Cadillac so it must be fine.   ( Not sure about aligning a car with weight on the front tires as opposed to having them suspended off the ground)  I did mine with the tires suspended.

[Cold Blue]

4 hours ago, Dan Hiebert said:

The two differences I see between your alignment procedure and that described in the service manual (I have manuals for both the P15 and D24): 1 - Weight of the car, unloaded, is supposed to be on the (level) ground.  Book doesn't specify turntables or anything, but it works easier if the tires can move freely, putting them on a few layers of newspaper works; 2 - This is where I had the same problem you note with the long tie rod, except I had the same initial results with both sides (I wrote notes in my manual, elsewise I wouldn't have remembered this - duh), loosen ALL tie rod end clamps, and adjust both at the same time in opposite directions to each other, for the proper toe-in/out, not each side separately.  I had done what you did to get the overall measurements close and center the steering wheel after I had removed and rebuilt the steering box.  Then I wanted to get the toe-in/out alignment down and stayed with trying each side separately - didn't work well until I loosened everything.  I don't remember if I figured out why it works that way, I just noted it to emphasize to myself to follow the service manual procedures next time.  That may be a bit of overkill, since you were just trying to get it close to get it to a shop.

 

This may or may not help, from the manual: "Lengthening the short tie rod moves the steering wheel center spoke to the right.  Lengthening the long tie rod moves the spoke to the left.  One full turn of the tie rod will change the front wheel position one half inch, and will move the steering wheel about three and one half inches, measured at the rim."  So, if you were turning one tie rod at a time, you were probably moving the steering wheel, not the road wheel.  When I did it one side at a time, neither wheel moved, but I was under the car and didn't notice if the steering wheel moved or not.  I re-read the procedure, had the "ah-hah" moment, then centered everything up again and started over.     

Dale - Thanks for your response! I just had an "ah-ha" moment too. I see now what is happening. Thanks so much!!! Blue.

[dale]

On 4/9/2019 at 11:42 AM, dale said:

OK.. I put on a rack and pinion so had to align the front end too.  I did the string method  by running a string along the outside of the tires and down the sides of the car until both sides were equal.  I had ground out a couple of the teeth on the steering wheel so it would go on the shaft anywhere seeing there is no turn signal canceler anyway.  Went under the car and measured the distance between tires front and back until equal.  ( book calls for zero toe-in.  Adjusted a smidge for some toe-in anyway.  1/4 inch.  Slipped on steering wheel temporarily and drove down the side road to see how far off the steering wheel was  and then made the correction for the final location.  Its really hard to find a shop that will even talk to about an alignment on cars this old....Car goes down the road like my Cadillac so it must be fine.   ( Not sure about aligning a car with weight on the front tires as opposed to having them suspended off the ground)  I did mine with the tires suspended.

I should have read Ground off the raised section on the steering shaft.  Not the teeth on the steering wheel.

[Cold Blue]

4 hours ago, dale said:

I should have read Ground off the raised section on the steering shaft.  Not the teeth on the steering wheel.

I thought so Dale. The raised section on the steering shaft makes you install the pitman arm in one position. Grinding it off would allow adjustment. Thanks!!!

[dale]

On 4/11/2019 at 5:05 PM, Cold Blue said:

I thought so Dale. The raised section on the steering shaft makes you install the pitman arm in one position. Grinding it off would allow adjustment. Thanks!!!

I ground off the raised area on the shaft that the steering wheel goes on.  Get the wheels straight as you can with the car and then adjust so they are the same with perhaps a smidge toe in and then you can move the steering wheel in the correct position after you go down the road.

[Cold Blue]

Thanks everyone for your responses!! After reading everyone's responses, I decided to do the string method of alignment again, and be as precise as I possibly could. Many trips back and forth from the front to rear of the car to adjust the string.... Saw that the passenger's side had just a touch of toe out. So I bumped the steering wheel to correct it, got a 1/16" toe-in on it. Then measured the driver's side really good, and saw 1/2" of toe in. Yikes - way too much. Jacked her up, loosened both pinch bolts, gave her about a 1/2 turn. Let her down, measured, and Viola! About a 1/16" toe-in, just what the doctor ordered. Test drive.....hot dog, she floats down the road like a Cadillac. Well. almost.......And the steering wheel position is real close too. I think I will leave good enough alone. Next on the list - check for front end looseness as MarkAubuchon described; I think I am good though. Went for a 2 hour joy ride today! It is a trip driving these old cars. And my 218 flathead sounds so sweet - I have a single exhaust with a Smitty muffler on it.