oil, diesel

[Rodney Bullock]

Is it me or am I dreaming. I changed all my 6 cly cars to diesel oil 4 months ago and when I check my oil before driving them, they are never a quart low. The mark is where it was when I first changed the oil. Is there anyone else on the forum that has found this to be true? Could I be getting a false reading? Don't get me wrong I am happy:D however what part of this oil doesen't burn off like conventional oil? I have been ride hard in the heat and things are A OK.

[Don Coatney]

Rodney;

I also switched to diesel oil on my last oil change. When I check my oil it is never low. But this was true with my engine before I switched to diesel oil. Were your engines using oil prior to your change?

[Brad Lustig]

Did I miss a thread? Where did the diesel oil idea come from? Advantages?

[Justin Slingsby]

Huh I ran diesel oil for awhile and never really thought it made a difference. What brand are you running? My Industrial Motor smells like it was run on diesel oil as I am thinking it came from a fork lift for a trucking company???

[Rodney Bullock]

I thought we had this discussion here months ago. The conventional oil we have been using for years has some additives removed. The diesel oil that has a certain rating has the additives we need in a soild lifter type engine. What they call flat tappet. The primary additive they talk about is the zinc. The Shell rottella with the rating CI-4 / CI-4 plus is the one you want to use. When I first switched I noyiced a smell however now it is gone. I first noticed the difference when on a hot day 97 degress the truck was performing flawless and had great pick-up. normally the truck got sluggish when it got hot. It increased the speed and mileage as well. They are now changing the formulas for the diesel so you have to hunt for the rating I just showed you. If you can't find it , not to worry you just have to add an additive to it like STP or lucus.

[1just4don]

I am guessing there is something magical about THAT particular oil. Even well worn diesel motors will quit using oil 'sometimes'. Its a well known fact for as many years as are on the calendar. But this is ag country!! I know guys that have used good diesel oil in their gas cars and vans for as old as they are with good results. Shell Rotella has ALWAYS been proud and more expensive than regular oil,,,like about twice,,,but probably worth the chips!!

[teardrop puller]

I use Rotell-T, so far so good. I have heard that they are changing the formula.

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/leftnavs/zzz_lhn1_0_0.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/welcome.html

kai

[carol craig]

I wanted to keep my Isuzu diesel Trooper 4WD for use in heavy snow that sometimes blocks my long lane but the frame was rotting. So last Winter I built a 9 gauge fully boxed frame with roll cage flat bed vehicle around the engine. I have only used Rotella bought from Sam's club and it runs well. PO mechanic said he got 40 mpg. Knowledgeable people swear by the engine. Frank

[Guest 50Plymouth]

I've also used the same shell oil as above, and was pleasantly surprised - I anticipated much greater consumption on the old engine. I kinda wish I could get it locally also in 5qt. containers instead of the usual gallon jugs.

[Norm's Coupe]

I have to question using diesel oil in a non diesel car?

First: If the car is burning oil, there's usually a reason it's burning oil. Usually, it's bad valves or rings. So.......if the diesel oil stops the car from burning oil, how did it stop it from burning oil? Could only stop it two ways. One, the oil is heavier and thus not breaking through the bad valves or rings. Two, the oil is caking up inside the engine to prevent it from burning oil.

Second: If your car has a good engine that does not burn oil, why take the chance of clogging it up with heavier oil, or possibly caking up inside the engine?

Third: We all know diesel engines are hard to start in the cold weather. That's why you see truckers leaving their engines running at truck stops. They have to use hotter spark plugs and additives to help keep the diesel fuel thinner for easier starting in cold weather. So, now if you use diesel oil, it's probably also thicker in the winter, and may possibly make it harder to start the car in cold winter months.

Just throwing this out there for thought and comments. Actually, I've never heard of anyone using diesel oil in a gas car engine before. For my money, I'll stay with the regular 10w30HD oil in my coupe. I'd hate to take a chance on clogging up my nice new engine with diesel oil. Also would never think of adding anything like STP to my oil.

To me using magic additives to stop an oil leak or burning, is like putting a stop leak additive in the cooling system to stop a leak. You aren't fixing anything, just hiding it.

[Don Coatney]

That's why you see truckers leaving their engines running at truck stops. They have to use hotter spark plugs and additives to help keep the diesel fuel thinner for easier starting in cold weather.

Norm;

Any idea where I can get some of these hotter spark plugs that the diesel truckers use? As I am using diesel oil in my engine I figgure the hotter spark plugs might be a good idea. I stopped in a local truck stop and asked if they had any of these hotter spark plugs that the diesel truckers use and they sort of snickered as they told me no. Actually it was a full bellied laugh.

[Norm's Coupe]

Norm;

Any idea where I can get some of these hotter spark plugs that the diesel truckers use? As I am using diesel oil in my engine I figgure the hotter spark plugs might be a good idea. I stopped in a local truck stop and asked if they had any of these hotter spark plugs that the diesel truckers use and they sort of snickered as they told me no. Actually it was a full bellied laugh.

Don,

Since I'm not into any type of diesel engines, I really don't know. Maybe a dealer has them. I believe the correct name for them is "Glow Plugs". Guess your parts store needs a little better help behind the counter.

[Norm's Coupe]

Here you are Don.

NGK glow plugs - You can rely on these

Well functioning and reliable glow plugs are decisive helpers for each cold start. Through intensive research and trendsetting developing work, NGK always offers the latest state of the art technology and in additions sets the glow plug technology standards. NGK glow plugs ensure fast ignition and thus environmentally friendly combustion, even at temperatures below freezing point, by guaranteeing optimum ignition conditions for the injected foil through the thermal energy transported into the combustion chamber. Diesel engines are self-igniters (compression-ignition engines). The ignited fuel ignites without requiring an ignition spark. They require the heat produced during compression in order to initiate combustion of the added diesel fuel. Therefore, much energy is required for ignition at low temperatures.

Here's the link. http://www.ngkspark.com.au/product_index.htm?http://www.ngkspark.com.au/glow/index.htm

[Merle Coggins]

Here you are Don.

NGK glow plugs - You can rely on these

Well functioning and reliable glow plugs are decisive helpers for each cold start. Through intensive research and trendsetting developing work' date=' NGK always offers the latest state of the art technology and in additions sets the glow plug technology standards. NGK glow plugs ensure fast ignition and thus environmentally friendly combustion, even at temperatures below freezing point, by guaranteeing optimum ignition conditions for the injected foil through the thermal energy transported into the combustion chamber. Diesel engines are self-igniters (compression-ignition engines). The ignited fuel ignites without requiring an ignition spark. They require the heat produced during compression in order to initiate combustion of the added diesel fuel. Therefore, much energy is required for ignition at low temperatures.

Here's the link. [url']http://www.ngkspark.com.au/product_index.htm?http://www.ngkspark.com.au/glow/index.htm[/url]

You're partly right, Norm. A diesel engine is a compression Ignition engine. When the air is compressed in the cylinder it gets very hot. Then fuel is injected into the cylinder at very high pressure, which atomizes it into a fine mist. The atomized fuel in the hot air goes "BOOM" creating the power stroke.

Glow plugs are mearly a cold start device. When starting the engine in freezing conditions the glow plugs, or other air intake heaters, will preheat the intake air to help increase the air temperatures under compression for better starting. Once the engine is running the glow plugs are no longer needed. For engines without intake air heating devices, ether works quite well. A quick sniff of this "summer air" and they'll fire right up. But don't use ether in an engine with intake heaters. Intake manifolds and/or heads have been know to come unglued when the ether hits the hot glow plug or heater grid. Again with the BANG!!!

[Rodney Bullock]

Glow plugs are for diesel engines, gas powered motors can not use glow plugs, they are for diesel fuel. We are recommending diesel oil for flat tappet engines. Diesel oil and conventional oil are almost the same. If you read the label the diesel oil exceeds all requirements of conventional oil and then some. ZDDP or something simulair is missing from the conventional oil that is produced now, along time ago when most engines were 6 cly with flat tappet motors the zinc was very important if you are running hydrulic lifters this doesen't apply to you. I found that farm engines that run on gas use diesel oil when ever possible. The Studebaker people are really up on this because of a recent rod and main bearing failure situation, please take note things are not as they were, I know how everyone loves there cars so please take hed.

[Merle Coggins]

I believe what you guys are referring to with your "diesel oil" has more to do with the additive packages in the oil, not the oil it's self.

Oils marketed for modern automotive engines are without many of the additives that help our older engines. As I recall one of them is Zinc, and the others I forget (maybe molybdenum?). Anyway, oils sold for diesel engines don't have to meet those tighter emission standards so they can still have those additives. Even automotive oils that don't fall into the tight emission standards may be OK. Usually anything 10w40 or heavier will be OK. It's the 10w30's, 5w30's and lighter that are recommended for modern emission engines.

That's the way I've understood it lately anyway,

Merle

[Norm's Coupe]

Like I said, I'm not into diesel engines. In fact, I've always been under the assumption that diesel engines did not need engine oil because the oil was mixed in with the fuel. Sort of like the small 2 cycle engines don't need oil in them.

Also, no one has answered my original questions about how the diesel oil stops an engine from burning or leaking oil. Is it a gummy substance (like STP or some other gummy junk)added to the oil, or is the engine becoming clogged with caked up material?

I'm not saying it doesn't work, simply because I've never heard of anyone using it in gasoline engines. I'm simply asking, if it does work, how and why?

[Alexander]

I own a late model diesel car and know a thing or 2 about them.

As some have mentioned, diesel engines do not have spark plugs and don't need them. the glow plugs that some mistaken for spark plugs are used only when its cold to preheat the combustion chamber.

diesel oil burns just like any other oil. the difference is the wight, and 2 key additives. One that helps suspend the sut in the oil, and 2nd being high zinc content.

the reason why some cars burn less oil on diesel is because its a little heaver the regular (15w-40)

FYI - when using high quality diesel oil such as Amsoil, many truckers change oil every 35,000-45,000 miles

[Rodney Bullock]

Norm, My motor in my 1953 chevy truck(the first experiment with diesel oil) Is the motor that I am refering to in my original post. This truck has about 2,354 miles on it since it's rebuild. The block was bored 80 over, head rebuilt, new crank, bearings, 3/4 race cam,dual carb, split manifold 6 cly motor. "IT NEVER BURNED OIL" NEVER< NEVER NEVER NEVER! After a 200 or 300 mile trip it would be half a quart low. Since using the "diesel oil" I have driven to the studebaker swap meet in york,PA. Baltimore twice, Richmond Virginia twice. A total of 567 miles and I have not had to top off the oil. It doesen't clogg anything. Buy a quart and pour it out into a cup It looks like conventional oil however it smells different. The truck runs different at high speeds the oil doesen't hinder the crank, when you run 20w 50 in the winter you can tell that the heavy oil is there and gives resistance, with the diesel oil I don't feel the resistance;)

[Merle Coggins]

Norm, I'm guessing the reduction in oil consumption may have something to do with the fact that the so called "diesel oil" is a heavier grade than what they were using. A common oil grade used in truck and equipment diesel engines is a 15w40.

As for your misconception regarding diesels not using oil... well my friend, I've got a lot to teach you. Diesel engines use the same type of lubrication system that you are used to in your car's engine. The main difference between a gasoline engine and a diesel engine in the fuel system. In stead of mixing the intake air with gas vapor, as in a gas engine, the intake air is drawn in unrestricted and clean. The fuel (diesel fuel oil) is then injected under extreme pressure (3000 - 5000 in a conventional engine, and up to 30,000 psi in the new Tier III emission engines). This fuel is injected into the compressed air and creates the combustion. Otherwise it's just a normal 4 stroke engine.

Now to add some confussion, GM (Detroit Diesel) used to make 2 stoke diesel engines. However, you didn't mix the fuel with the oil like you would with your chain saw or weed wacker. These engines will not run without a blower. You've no doubt seen these blowers on performance engines. The blower that you'd mount on your Chebby 350 is basicly a Detroit Diesel blower (usually from a 53 or 71 series engine). A Detroit Diesel with a blower is considered "Natrally Asperated", but with a turbocharger it's considered "Super Charged". On these engines there is a ring of intake ports in the cylinder liner. When the piston gets near the bottom of it's stroke it uncovers these ports the air is forced into the cylinder by the blower, and at the same time forces the exhaust out through the exhaust valves in the head. The piston then travels up, compressing the air, fuel is injected, BOOM, Power stroke, piston reached the bottom, intake/exhaust, compression, Boom, etc. But even these engines had a typical pressurized lubrication system with an oil sump, oil pump, filters, etc.

End of class. Please return next week when we discuss tune-ups in "Diesel Engines 101"

Merle

[grey beard]

Yes, Norm, it really does work. The additive package in diesel oil is quite different from that used on modern gasoline engines, and it just happens that the diesel additive package is also beneficial to flat tappet engines - among which are our own MoPar flatties.

This discussion does not pertain to most gasoline engines that use hydraulic lifters, etc., and is peculiar to solid lifter, flat valve tappet engines like our flatheads. It is not heavier oil. It is not thiker oil, and it will not clog up your new motor - so don't put any in that engine. It will, however, help keep your older flathead better lubricated.

The proof of all this pudding lies in the Petroleum Institute (UPI) designationa codes found on the label or can top of every quart of oil, no matter who made or bottled it. If you study these letters you will find that diesel oil both meets - and exceeds - ALL gasoline engine oil requirements. This means that rather than clogging up or harming your flathead engine, you are giving it a few additives that will complement its operation - many of which used to be incorporated in motor oil when our engines were new and have since been dropped.

Fleet owners who have mega bukkz invested in their equipment engines and who really care, generally subscribe to an oil testing service, where samples are pulled from every engine periodically and lab tested. These samples are then analyzed for things like antifreeze contamination, wear metals from rings and bearings, and other tests that determine whether the oil is still viable or breaking down. it is not unusual for these tests to occasionally spot an engine that is beginning to show signs of problems - in which case the machine can be sidelined and inspected BEFORE expensize damage results. These people rely completely on the UPI codes listed for the oils they use. These codes ae far more important than the brand names on the cans. JMHO

[steveplym]

I've got a higher mileage 218 that runs great, but smokes a bit on deceleration.

I'm running 10w 30 in it now. Usually can use up to 1 qt. per 100 miles. What should I run to help stop the smoking?

10w 40, 10w 50, straight 30 or 40?

[Norm's Coupe]

Thanks to Merle's explanation I now understand how the diesel oil can help stop a car burning or leaking oil. It's simply a heavier oil, so it won't pass through a small problem area like a lighter weight oil may do. I'm not having a problem with burning oil myself. The only time my coupe is low on oil is after I drain it for an oil change, so I'll stay with my 10w30.

Stevenplym,

If my engine was burning a quart of oil every 100 miles, I'd look for the cause and fix it. Using a heavier oil only mask the problem, it does not fix the problem.

After a truck hit my 64 Chevelle in Feb. 65 I needed a car to get to work because the insurance company was playing games on giving me a total loss. So I could hold out for the total loss I bought an old beater of a 58 Chevy for $100. It had bad valves but ran good enough to get me to work and back. That thing burned so much oil that each time I'd stop at a gas station, I'd tell the attendant to fill it up with oil and check the gas. Back then you could buy good oil by the can at the station or have them put in what they called "Bulk Oil". Bulk oil was a heavier oil that was not refined as well as other oils were, and a lot cheaper. If I had used 10w30 it would have burned out right away. So, the bulk oil lasted longer. So..........using a heavier oil (or diesel oil) may help you burn less oil, but it's not fixing your problem. If you keep the car, eventually you'll have to fix it anyway.

Rodney,

Prior to that 58 Chevy I just mentioned, I also owned another one not too long before I bought the 64 Chevelle. That 58 Chevy was a nice one when I bought it. However, after so many miles, I started having lubricating problems with it too. At the time I had several mechanics tell me that the 50's 6 cylinder engines all had problems with the oil lines going to the lifters and rocker arms. They all told me to pull the valve cover, remove the rocker assembly and clean it out. When I did pull the cover, it was a real mess in there. I guess (according to the mechanics of the day) that the oil passages in those engines were too small and got stopped up. Also the oil port in the block going to the lifters would get stopped up. They were correct when I pulled the valve cover. It was one big mess of caked, burned on oil. Very little oil was getting up there. The solution to that back then was to add an external oil line going up to the rocker assembly. Did that and had no more problems with lubrication on that engine, or on how it ran. If I had not done that I would have burned the valves up in it.

[steveplym]

Stevenplym' date='

If my engine was burning a quart of oil every 100 miles, I'd look for the cause and fix it. Using a heavier oil only mask the problem, it does not fix the problem.

After a truck hit my 64 Chevelle in Feb. 65 I needed a car to get to work because the insurance company was playing games on giving me a total loss. So I could hold out for the total loss I bought an old beater of a 58 Chevy for $100. It had bad valves but ran good enough to get me to work and back. That thing burned so much oil that each time I'd stop at a gas station, I'd tell the attendant to fill it up with oil and check the gas. Back then you could buy good oil by the can at the station or have them put in what they called "Bulk Oil". Bulk oil was a heavier oil that was not refined as well as other oils were, and a lot cheaper. If I had used 10w30 it would have burned out right away. So, the bulk oil lasted longer. So..........using a heavier oil (or diesel oil) may help you burn less oil, but it's not fixing your problem. If you keep the car, eventually you'll have to fix it anyway.

[/quote']

I agree with that. I'm only asking as the motor I have in there now is coming out this winter as I have another motor I am rebuilding. I'm just enjoying driving the car with this motor until the other one is complete. I'm going to drive the car over to Indiana next weekend and was wanting an easy fix for now. Not looking into investing any more money in this engine, what little I have invested now.

[Don Coatney]

As some have mentioned, diesel engines do not have spark plugs and don't need them. the glow plugs that some mistaken for spark plugs are used only when its cold to preheat the combustion chamber. FYI - when using high quality diesel oil such as Amsoil, many truckers change oil every 35,000-45,000 miles

To set the record straight I was jerking Norm's chain when I asked him where to buy diesel spark plugs. I am very much aware of how diesel engines work.

Last diesel I owned was a Detroit 6V53 in an International truck. This engine is a V-6 two stroke with a blower as mentioned by Merle. This engine also spins at higher RPM's than a conventional 4 stroke diesel. Unlike a conventional diesel it is not recommended to let this engine run at idle for extended periods of time. This engine is found in many bus (not truck) applications. Recommended oil change interval on this engine was 100,000 miles and it took somewhere around 30 quarts to do so.