P-15 Convertible tacking strip

[Ward Duffield]

hello guys

I need to renew the tacking strip on my 1946 Plymouth convertible before installing the new top.

Has anyone been through this procedure?

Ant advice or images would be greatly appreciated.

Ward Duffield

Pine Plains, NY

[Mark D]

As it happens my convertible was dropped to the trimmer shop on Friday. He will be removing and installing a new haartz top for me. Part of the deal is that he allows me time to repaint  the bows while the top is off. I will be able to make photos for you likely mid week.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Mark D
Spelling erroe

[Ward Duffield]

OK great, Thank you.

I had a machinist friend make covers for the rusty rivets on the bows and I think it will really look great

[Mark D]

What paint did you use to spray the bows?

[Ward Duffield]

Single stage urethane, color matched at the body shop supply house

PPG

[blucarsdn]

Been there, done that.. Rebuilding the top assembly for my '39 Plym conv coupe was a very daunting task, the car had sat in an open field in Montana for thirty-eight years. Adding to the difficulty was the fact that the '39 Plymn was the first open car to have a power top which is vacuum operated by two large cylinders located behind the seat in the quarter panels.

I had the assembly acid stripped to remove all of the paint, rust etc., A very smart move in lieu of trying to sandblast and/or wire brush and/or sand. There are twelve special shoulder bolts and four very large rivets that hold the assembly together, The fasteners were in very poor shape from years of use and exposure, I had new bolts made out of stainless steel to match the original fasteners, head size, etc. I polished the heads of the fasteners which made them look like chrome. I had new shafts made out of stainless steel for the vacuum cylinders, making them slightly over size to allow for wear in the canister bushings. The original shafts were hard chrome which is almost impossible to duplicate.

I had the many pieces of the top assembly powder coated in a taupe/flesh color. the cost to powder coat was under $200., which I thought was very reasonable.

I have done two '39 convertibles the red one shown in the attached pix and my green one.

[blucarsdn]

On 8/13/2017 at 2:37 PM, Ward Duffield said:

hello guys

I need to renew the tacking strip on my 1946 Plymouth convertible before installing the new top.

Has anyone been through this procedure?

Ant advice or images would be greatly appreciated.

Ward Duffield

Pine Plains, NY

Just noted that I did not respond to the original question in this thread. I will in the following.

The tack strip on my '39 Plym is very typical of most older model open cars consisting of a special metal band, about 3/4" wide that is riveted to the body at the upper edge of the body. The older bodies have a dense paper strip that is crimped into the channel. The rivets that hold the strip onto the body are a special flush type rivet. The removal of the rivets requires drilling them out so as to not damage the body. The tack strip channel should have been removed before the finish paint was applied.

Most companies that supply top fabric have a new plastic type of tack strip which will hold the tacks in place and not stain the new top material. The tack strip should be re-riveted onto the body, then the proper size of new tack strip is placed into the channel and the edges are re-crimped to secure the plastic strip in place. I used i/8" pop rivets with the head inside of the channel...Wm..

Edited August 18, 2017 by blucarsdn
spelling

[Branded]

On 8/13/2017 at 6:05 PM, Mark D said:

As it happens my convertible was dropped to the trimmer shop on Friday. He will be removing and installing a new haartz top for me. Part of the deal is that he allows me time to reprint the bows while the top is off. I will be able to make photos for you likely mid week.

If you mind me asking, what is customary charge to install a new top.

Thanks

[blucarsdn]

An approximate cost for a new top is somewhat of a mute subject, that is due to all of the variables. The interior in my car, all leather and the top, three ply German material as used on Mercedes convertibles cost me $8,5k in 2012  I rebuilt the top assembly, including the header panel and rear bow using oak which I laminated together like the original. The rear window cost me over $400. including the shipping.. It is chrome like the original. I have no idea how much time I spent rebuilding the top assembly, Nobody wanted to touch it so the job fell onto me..

I don't care for the 'Hartz" type of top material, it is generally thin and the finish on the bottom side leaves much to be desired. The bottom side of the top material on my car is finished in a tweed pattern that is the same color as the top material. The weatherstripping on the 'A" & "B" pillars in impossible to find, I did find some that was smaller than the channel it had to fit into. It was not fabric covered like the original. I finally found that the weatherstrip rubber for the '35-41 Fords was a perfect fit, the same was true of the stainless steel channel that the rubber fit into. Got these items from Drake in Oregon.

The weather seal for the header panel was another problem, nobody knew what I was talking about. After looking at several options I discovered that the side window channel for a '64 Chevy was a perfect match. In it's original form this rubber channel is fabric covered and U shaped. I opened the channel up which was very easy because there is no metal reinforcing within the rubber. I then glued the rubber into the metal channel in the header panel. Perfect fit..

As a point of info, I have written a detailed story on the POC Forum that goes into great detail about the rebuilding of my '39 Plym conv coupe. 

[Mark D]

On 8/20/2017 at 9:31 AM, Branded said:

If you mind me asking, what is customary charge to install a new top.

Thanks

I dont mind you asking at all. I think sharing gives power to the consumer in these instances.  Keep in mind that shop rates can vary by region and overhead requirements. My guy has a fairly simple shop with low overhead, and only one apprentice in training (which was pretty cool to hear in these days).  Aside from materials the top install will cost roughly $1,000-1,200USD. Note I am in the northeast US and labor rates tend to be higher here.

Cheers - Mark D

[Mark D]

Got a call from Bill Hirsch today.  Can't say enough about how much it means to me that the principal of a company takes the time to place a call to his customers. How it happened was that my trimmer opened up the cartons that the top was shipped in and found that the padding for the roof and the wire-on trim were sent in the wrong color.  My trimmer called Hirsch and let them know, whereupon Bill got the note and called me to apologize. Bill promised all incorrect parts would be replaced asap without cost.

I did my homework before I made the purchase from Bill Hirsch. Many people told me he runs a good company and delivers good products. Today I learned that first hand his customer service is also great.

[Branded]

1 hour ago, Mark D said:

I dont mind you asking at all. I think sharing gives power to the consumer in these instances.  Keep in mind that shop rates can vary by region and overhead requirements. My guy has a fairly simple shop with low overhead, and only one apprentice in training (which was pretty cool to hear in these days).  Aside from materials the top install will cost roughly $1,000-1,200USD. Note I am in the northeast US and labor rates tend to be higher here.

Cheers - Mark D

Thanks for the information. I have a 49 Wayfarer that I'm going to have a top put on some day. Kind of hard to justify though because the top isn't extreme bad, one very small hole that isn't really noticeable and one snap that ripped out. When ever we have the Wayfarer out for a cruise the top is down so nobody sees it anyway.

[Mark D]

On 8/17/2017 at 2:26 PM, blucarsdn said:

 I had new shafts made out of stainless steel for the vacuum cylinders, making them slightly over size to allow for wear in the canister bushings. The original shafts were hard chrome which is almost impossible to duplicate.

Got a few questions for you;

1.) why did you decide to go with new shafts. Wouldn't it be easy to press out and insert new brass bushings?

2.) did you find a replacement for the leather seals and if so what was the material and where did you source them?

3.) does the top go up and down satisfactorily now?

your work looks excellent.

mark d

[blucarsdn]

The bushings in the top of my vacuum cylinders were bronze, not to badly worn, maybe a couple of thousands. The shafts were a different story, fortunately the top was down when I found the car sitting in a field in central Montana so the shafts had not been exposed to the weather for the thirty-eight years the car sat in the open field..

I needed to have the shafts re-chromed, which is not and easy deal because they have to be "hard-chromed" which requires turning them down to the required size after they have been hard-chromed. This is not a cheap process. Rather than pressing out the bronze bushings and then having bushings and shafts made I opted to just have the shafts made.

The leathers in my cylinders were in very good shape, as was the bore. Central Montana is quite dry, less than 14" annual persipatation, added to the sub zero temps negates the forming of heavy rust on metal surfaces. I soaked the leathers in neats-foote oil, then I honed the cylinders with a "bottle-brush" type of hone.. Upon re-assembling the cylinders I checked them for vacuum leaks and function, they were fine so I installed them.

I should add that the red '39 conv I did came from Alabama. The vacuum cylinders were junk, totally rusted out as was the floor pan in the car. Typical Eastern US rust bucket. My car is a Califorina car, Long Beach Chrysler plant, Jan. 39. Shipped to a dealer in San Francisco on Jan 29, 1939 . The car did not appear in Montana until 1951.

In response to your question about how well the top works.. Actually not very well, it is very slow.. Everything connected to the top, other than the header panel, rear bow  and corner braces, including an original vacuum switch on the dash is Chrysler. The problem with my top is that I have a late model V8 engine, the late model engines do not make good vacuum like the old inline engines.. In order to get my top to work properly I was going to have to install a vacuum pump and a vacuum tank.. Nada, just not enough room in or under the car.

There is a company in the LA area that specializes in convertible tops, they will convert my top to an electric top for $1,500. I am leaning in that direction, I could probably sell my vacuum assembly for a pretty good sum. Wm.

[Mark D]

29 minutes ago, blucarsdn said:

The bushings in the top of my vacuum cylinders were bronze, not to badly worn, maybe a couple of thousands. The shafts were a different story, fortunately the top was down when I found the car sitting in a field in central Montana so the shafts had not been exposed to the weather for the thirty-eight years the car sat in the open field..

I needed to have the shafts re-chromed, which is not and easy deal because they have to be "hard-chromed" which requires turning them down to the required size after they have been hard-chromed. This is not a cheap process. Rather than pressing out the bronze bushings and then having bushings and shafts made I opted to just have the shafts made.

The leathers in my cylinders were in very good shape, as was the bore. Central Montana is quite dry, less than 14" annual persipatation, added to the sub zero temps negates the forming of heavy rust on metal surfaces. I soaked the leathers in neats-foote oil, then I honed the cylinders with a "bottle-brush" type of hone.. Upon re-assembling the cylinders I checked them for vacuum leaks and function, they were fine so I installed them.

I should add that the red '39 conv I did came from Alabama. The vacuum cylinders were junk, totally rusted out as was the floor pan in the car. Typical Eastern US rust bucket. My car is a Califorina car, Long Beach Chrysler plant, Jan. 39. Shipped to a dealer in San Francisco on Jan 29, 1939 . The car did not appear in Montana until 1951.

In response to your question about how well the top works.. Actually not very well, it is very slow.. Everything connected to the top, other than the header panel, rear bow  and corner braces, including an original vacuum switch on the dash is Chrysler. The problem with my top is that I have a late model V8 engine, the late model engines do not make good vacuum like the old inline engines.. In order to get my top to work properly I was going to have to install a vacuum pump and a vacuum tank.. Nada, just not enough room in or under the car.

There is a company in the LA area that specializes in convertible tops, they will convert my top to an electric top for $1,500. I am leaning in that direction, I could probably sell my vacuum assembly for a pretty good sum. Wm.

Thanks for the response.  My cylinders and chrome shafts were also in great shape. Tolerances between the shaft and bronze (i stand corrected, and it was what I meant to type) bushings is fantastic, with zero end play fully extended.  Like your car my car was stored with the top down for most of its life, but the dry storage was not kind to the leathers.  Ive been in contact with a company in Florida (http://www.hydroe.com) used to make replacement parts for these systems, however in my last conversation with them the old timer that had the skills passed on and they no longer offer the service.  The do 100% hydraulic now and make systems for 50's through modern cars. Much of the stuff they sell is OEM direct replacement for 50's cars.  They quoted me $700 for a complete hydraulic system which I have given thought to.  Before I commit, i am waiting for a return call from a company in Australia the makes replacement rubber cups for pumps. The cups are $45AUS each, and since I will be in Australia for business next month I am going to stop by and see what I can get from them. I'd really like to keep the original system in the car, but I also want to have a functioning top for the car, and since most of this gear isn't seen, I am willing to acquiesce on an item like this.

[greg g]

Do these bear any resemblance to what you need??

https://www.deanbennettsupply.com/cup-leathers.html

[Mark D]

10 hours ago, greg g said:

Do these bear any resemblance to what you need??

https://www.deanbennettsupply.com/cup-leathers.html

YESIREEBOB! (or Greg...)  #711 probably the closest fit, but the edges are not thickened or flared. Cheap enough to order and give it a go. Got an email from the guys downunder moments ago.  Will see how these do before I go knock on their door.  

 

 

[Mark D]

Greg - Thanks to you for this lead. I made a call and talked to them this morning. The cups I require are indeed special order, but they are willing to make new. Since we are in contact with a dozen p15 convertible owners now via the facebook page Robin and I are admin-ing, I will see if there is interest in having a few more sets made for these guys. Next step is for me to pull the cylinders from the car and take some pretty detailed photos of specific parts of the interior, they will then try to match spec at the factory. 

[greg g]

Hope that works out.  Wonder how many other brands converts used vacuum.  Do You need to maybe include Dodge, Desoto, and Chrysler in the group?  Broaden the knowledge base as well as potential customers??

[Mark D]

3 minutes ago, greg g said:

Hope that works out.  Wonder how many other brands converts used vacuum.  Do You need to maybe include Dodge, Desoto, and Chrysler in the group?  Broaden the knowledge base as well as potential customers??

From what I know, vacuum powered tops were only mopar, and only offered late 30's to early 49. The facebook group intention was to collect P15 owners, to try and figure out how many p15's were left, we may open it to the sister marques.  Hoping to hear back that they can make up the cups, before I make too many promises there's a few more calls and research that I have to do for the vendor in order for them to be certain they can make the molds for these. 

[blucarsdn]

I believe that GM used the vacuum tops in '40-41 on the Chevy's/Pontiac's. If the '40-47 DCDP used a heavy return spring that extends down to  the floor like the '39's I had to have a bunch made, needed four for the two cars I was working on. If they will work I'll be glad to sell them to any one that needs them. I also have extra shoulder bolts, I had them made out of stainless steel.

I have attached a pix of my '39 conv, it represents sixteen years of work. There was only thirty-one known 39 Plym conv cpes when I found the car in 1996, there are now over eighty.WM

[Mark D]

On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 1:30 PM, blucarsdn said:

I believe that GM used the vacuum tops in '40-41 on the Chevy's/Pontiac's. If the '40-47 DCDP used a heavy return spring that extends down to  the floor like the '39's I had to have a bunch made, needed four for the two cars I was working on. If they will work I'll be glad to sell them to any one that needs them. I also have extra shoulder bolts, I had them made out of stainless steel.

I have attached a pix of my '39 conv, it represents sixteen years of work. There was only thirty-one known 39 Plym conv cpes when I found the car in 1996, there are now over eighty.WM

 

P15 convertibles also have a spring assist. It is mounted horizontally behind the cylinder and attached to a lever on the B pillar top bow. Mine are present and in good shape.

Nice car by the way!

Edited August 28, 2017 by Mark D

[blucarsdn]

It would appear that the location and size of the assist spring changed some time in 1940. I have one drawing, no date, that shows the spring in the '39 position, going down to the floor pan. Another drawing shows the spring being shorter and going to the "B" pillar. The vacuum top on the '40 Fords were a one year only item. Ford went to an all electric system in 1941.

I have attached two pix of my car, rear view and interior

[BobT-47P15]

As I recall, the man at Hydro E Lectric company in Florida said Cadillac used a vacuum system sometime during the

1940s.  They  supposedly can get cylinders, and perhaps parts......not sure about that.  You would have to call

them.

[Mark D]

Hey Bob - I called them and they don't have parts anymore.