pp#1123332/692166 copper brake hose gasket washer question

[3046moparcoupe]

Going through the front brakes on this 1946 P15....thanks to the forum and some late night research I discovered the existence of the original 2 stage type copper brake hose crush washers....(previous brake work on this car had used conventional regular copper washers in place between the cylinder and the brake hoses, which did the important job of sealing the brake fluid but obviously didn't fill the back plate hole opening). 

 

The information I found here on the forum included a few pictures, and a note confirming that the washer is to be placed on the backside/outside of the brake backing plate and as the brake hose is tightened down, it will draw the larger O.D. area of the washer inward pulling the washer into a cone shape that also seals the hole in the brake back plate.

 

I received these crush washers in the mail today,..and in looking at both sides of the raised center area of the washer, ( the lip area that crushes to seal the brake fluid ),..they are not the same,...one side is about twice as thick as the other and looks like a solid section of copper, the other side is thinner and has a small space/gap between the raised ring and the rest of the washer.....(pretty poor job of trying to describe this, but if you are familiar with these washers you'll know what I'm talking about)

 

Question please: which side mates with the brake hose and which side mates with the wheel cylinder ?

 

Thank you for your help.

 

Steve

Edited July 28, 2016 by 3046moparcoupe

[P15-D24]

Don't think you need them. Should be a 45 degree SAE double flare fitting which doesn't use washers.  Only time I have seen washers used is on banjo fittings. 

[dpollo]

The washer you describe is indeed used on the hose connection to the upper wheel cylinder.  They are generally found these days on cars which have not had hoses or cylinders changed at any time. If the replacement washer is in any way tapered, then it is installed with the taper toward the cylinder so that tightening the hose will pull the outer flange of the washer toward the backing plate.

 

I believe that the outer flange will distort somewhat as it contacts the backing plate but that this will not prevent tightening of the hose.

[3046moparcoupe]

I appreciate the reply's back from folks...but still no definite on which way they should be installed....I've stared at them long enough to have come up with this idea, which may be 180 degrees off in left field, but here goes anyway....the crush ring section of this washer (raised area around the center I.D. on both sides of washer) is a solid chunk of material about 1/6" square on one side, then on the other, flip side of the washer, it's a much thinner, rolled lip edge, with a gap on it's bottom edge you can hang a finger nail in. Could it be that the heavier side should be installed towards the brake hose, as it will be dealing with the force and friction of wrenching the hose down tight....then the opposite thinner rolled lip edge would just have to compress in against the wheel cylinder).????  I do not know,..just swaggin it here...if it will seal either way, fantastic !  but anything I can do to avoid spillage of brake fluid, etc..that's the reason for being so needy and asking. I did find 3 pictures of this exact brake hose to wheel cylinder washer/gasket here in the past forum archives which were submitted by Dodgeb4ya member...in one of the pictures it shows a removed, used, washer laying on a flat surface,...you can tell it has been used because it is now cone shaped as it was tightened down and drawn into the backplate hole opening.....not for sure, but in the pic kinda looks to me like it was installed opposite to what I just described above,...so jury's still out for me on this one....

[Dodgeb4ya]

The inner raised portion of the copper washer faces towards the wheel cylinder. The outer larger diameter will not seal liquid tight against the backing plate .

Very few people can find these special copper sealing washers today and most just use the smaller copper washers that are a bitch at times to get them to seal tight with out first annealing them to make them softer so they will crush and seal better against the hose and wheel cylinder.

[3046moparcoupe]

Bob, sorry not trying to be a dense goober here,...but - both sides of these washers have an inner raised section, ridge, circle, etc...whatever one would call it, but the raised section on both sides is not the same. One is twice the size of the other, with the larger one being a solid (ridge/ring/circle) of copper about 1/16 high and wide,...while the other side is a much thinner ( rolled/lip/flap)  type  (ridge/ring/circle) of copper with not nearly the meat of the other side (maybe the larger side is what your referring to when you said the inner raised portion).... I've searched through every part of this forums archives (I believe) and I found the 3ea pictures you had posted ( back in 2014 I believe it was). The best picture of the 3ea was the pic of the washer laying flat, off the car, on a table top surface .. you could tell by the cone shape of the larger outer diameter of the washer, which way it had been pulled when installed,...and from what I could tell in the pic,...that washer appeared to have been installed with the largest solid ring non rolled raised section, installed towards the wheel cylinder....which is opposite of the way I had thought it would go, because I thought I might be on to something in regards to the shorter rolled lip flap raised section being was less apt to handle the stresses/twisting/etc. of wrenching the brake hose on....just trying to clartify, thank you for your time with this. I appreciate it. Steve

[Dodgeb4ya]

Steve... Here is some more pictures of the Mopar stepped copper brake hose washer. Flat one side raised on the other. Stepped side goes to the wheel cylinder.

 

Also shown are two other copper washers.

 

The 'ringed washer is a older up through the 80's replacement good sealing copper washer... and the very thin one on the far right is a currently supplied  Chinese one that usually leaks unless annealed or tightened till the brake hose threads are cranked so tight the hose fitting is close to failure!

[3046moparcoupe]

Bob, thanks for your effort and time with this, I appreciate the pics - they may just be the thing that brings this to light....the stepped washers I purchased look real close to what you show here but not exactly the same...(maybe different mfg's at the time made them slightly different but to perform the same function, guessing here, as I don't have the experience with this old stuff to know),

 

I've attached 3ea close up pics of one of these washers I have. The 1st two pics are of each side of the washer, then the last pic attempts a side angle view  to show how the rolled lip side of the washer is much smaller, this smaller side is definitely a rolled lip, as you can hang your fingernail underneath it....so similar I hate to say they are different, but if the pics are clear enough you'll see what I mean...thanks again for taking the time with this....I purchased 8 of them, so I'd have them for future, the fella on ebay still shows to have 5ea left if your interested, you can either search pp#1123332, or you can find them listed under ebay auction item no:131237916224.

 

$5.00 ea free shipping... (pricey, but normal for rare stuff I suppose)... course after seeing your pics these may not even be the correct stuff, just because they were listed as PP#1123332, from a seller with a 100% rating, still doesn't mean these are the correct part...

 

Steve

Edited July 31, 2016 by 3046moparcoupe