39 Plymouth coupe & intro

[blucarsdn]

I think the gear ratio of the Ford Bronco rear end might be a little low for your car.. The stock ratio for a Bronco is usually somewhere around 3.72, where-as most modern cars are in the mid to low 3's, i.e. 3.23, 3.05, etc.

The bolt pattern for the Ford F series trucks, 5 on 5.5 will" also present a problem... The Dodge 1/2 ton trucks also used the 5 on 5.5" bolt pattern..Generally speaking, Ford/Mopar cars all use the same bolt pattern on their cars.

With the proliferation of aftermarket vendors such as FatMan, Posie, TCI, etc., the practice of using parts harvested from junk yards to upgrade/improve the braking/handling of old cars is quickly coming to an end.

It is very true that there are a lot of "Old School" type car builders that are very good at harvesting parts from "Gremlins, Volares, Camaro's, etc., however, on the average, the harvested old parts are not that much better that what was removed from the vehicle to be rebuilt.

In response to your questions about the steering wheel and horn button on my '39 Plym;

The wheel is a Carrera, leather wrapped banjo wheel from their Classic line, which they no longer make.. By calling Carrera directly in lieu of going through a vendor, I lucked out and got the last brown wheel they had.

The horn button is from a standard '39 Plym steering wheel.. This type of horn button is smaller than the Delux banjo type, which is/was very common on the P8 cars....Bill

[gunnibronco]

Yeah, I know I'll be regearing it. My Bronco came from the factory with 4.11s, great for a rock crawler, not so for a car. There is a disk brake swap from an Explorer to the Bronco axle. For the Bronco guys, they have to convert it to 5x5.5. My axle shafts have been abused for 40 years and need replaced (had to redi-sleeve one already, surprised I didn't have to do the other), so I figure I may have a set of axle shafts made with 5x4.5. I need to read more to be sure.

I'll look into those vendors for what they have to offer.

I have to go check out the different steering wheels I have, my complete car is a P8 and has the ship in the button, I thought the P7 steering wheels I had just have a black button, and faded reddish rings. But it could be damage from years of sitting out in the elements.

Thanks

Chad

[Young Ed]

You might want to consider just hunting down another axle. Probably cheaper than doing all that rebuilding to the one you have.

[gunnibronco]

If something else happens along, I'll jump on it. But that usually means traveling or paying to ship things in. Not much opportunity for parts in my small town.

[gunnibronco]

I've been parting out the extra cars I bought, and put my car and the extra parts in storage.

I'm starting the process of getting a title from the state of Colorado. I have a good serial number plate (3229895) on the passenger A-pillar. Unfortunately, the 1972 Oregon title has a VIN #PI4898I3. I can't figure what the VIN# on the title refers to. Any ideas (original motor is long gone)? I think unless I can prove this title belongs to this car, I'm just going to file for a "rebuilder" title, based on a VIN inspection by a State Trooper.

Also, I was looking at body tag info. My car lists as an LA car based on the SN. I don't have a Briggs body tag (I'm sure it could have been removed/lost), like the one on my parts sedan (pictured) & coupe(Detroit cars based on SN). My complete coupe has a square/rectangular tag riveted on the passenger side firewall. Sorry the car is in storage and hard to take pictures of. Attached is a pic showing it just above the 2 long bolts coming through the firewall. The tag reads:

P8BC-3502

102-661

66-1016

Is this a different type body ID tag? The sedan & coupe parts cars (both Detriot) don't have this tag, but had a Briggs body tag.

Also, I've found an Explorer axle and sold my 9" from my 74 Bronco. One of my Bronco club members was selling off the rest of an Explorer he used for EFI & trans swap. The Explorer axle is a little wider 59.5" compared to 58", and already has Explorer brakes and a 5x4.5 wheel lug pattern. So its a lot easier than converting the Bronco axle to Explorer disk brakes and a different lug pattern. Unfortunatley, it doesn't have a limited slip, but they seem readily available on the Mustang forums, and I'll probably have to regear the axle, since its a 3.73. But gearing will depend on motor and trans choices I haven't made yet. I hope to get my Explorer axle from Denver next weekend, a friend might be able to pick it up for me.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Gunnibronco

[Robert Horne]

I have not found an Explorer rearend for my 38 Coupe yet, so I installed a Ford Ranger rearend, with a 3.73 gear. With the TK5 Ranger 5 speed trans,

the 3.73 is a very good match, with my 218 engine. The Ranger rear has

drum brakes, but that is ok, they are working good....

[gunnibronco]

Thanks, good info. I did a quick gear/rpm calculation and figured the 3.73 would probably work out with an OD trans. I just have absolutely no idea what motor option will pop up. I'm open to about anything.

I'm reevaluating my original ideas about a modern Mopar 5.7 EFI. I might be biting off more than I want to chew. I might want to stay smaller & carbed for simplicity, and space/fit.

[Young Ed]

That title used the engine #. Common practice for many states back then. I think the engine # is stamped on the frame somewhere if that helps.

[gunnibronco]

I'll go down to storage tomorrow and see what I can find on the frame. I found this thread that says the engine number should be on the left rear frame rail.

http://plymouthbulletin.com/smf/index.php?topic=283.15

[gunnibronco]

Here is what I've found. I started looking at the parts frame I have at my house, and found a number stamped in the frame about 26" in front of the front spring hanger bolt, directly above a brake line hanger hole. The number matches the block pictured above- 225768. So apparently that motor came from that frame (2 door sedan), cool.

I went down to storage and started wire brushing the same spot on my car and couldn't see any stamp. But I could see that the original black paint was still on the frame. I kept brushing at a couple odd spots in the paint, around the same spot as the stamp on the other frame. As I cleaned I could see the letters "PLY" in red? paint, stenciled on the frame. I also can start to make out a series of numbers below (closer to the ground) the PLY letters. I have to go tear down elk camp now, but will go back with some scotch brite & stuff and see if I can make the numbers out without removing them. Sorry I didn't have a camera, and I was squeezed between the storage unit wall, running board, parts doors, floor, and reading upside down.

If the car is titled with the engine number why wouldn't it start with P8? I corrected the title number above, it is PI4898I3. What is PI? Why is there an I in the number code? Does I=1?

Edited November 18, 2012 by Gunnibronco

[gunnibronco]

I want to send a big thanks out to Jim Benjaminson for helping answer my questions about the different body tags, and info.

He also cleared up why the Oregon title was registered with a P14 motor number instead of a P8 number. It just indicated the motor in the car at the time of the registration was a P14 (1942) block.

So I think that leaves me with an Oregon title that can't be tied to this car. I was hoping to find a motor number stamped in the frame, but it will be the original motor number, not the P14 number. Out of luck.

Here is what I did find, painted on the frame forward of the leaf springs. Painted in red? (I'm color blind, so I may be wrong) is

"12 1.38.72-4" & "PLY"(I'm not 100% sure the first 1 is a 1, its pretty hard to make out). I've flipped the photos 180*, the writing is upside down on the frame. The "PLY" is close to the top of the frame, behind the rocker.

[gunnibronco]

I've been reading up a lot about these cars here, for the last few months.  I've learned a ton, and think I have a clearer idea of how I want to progress.  Unfortunately, it may be another 6 months or a year before I can start on things.  I've still got a ways to go on my house, and I have to finish it before I start this.

 

I just picked up a totaled 97 Mountaineer 4x4 5.0.  I'm going to grab the rear end (3.55 limited slip), rear driveshaft and front disks/calipers.  I already have one Explorer rear axle, its a 3.73 open gear.  This will give me extra axles and brake parts.

 

I also think I'll grab the front & rear sway bars.  I dont' see why they should be able to be used.  I could be very wrong.

 

I was wondering what thoughts are on using the Mountaineer/Explorer rear leaf springs and control arm set  up.  I can cut the spring mounts off the Mountaineer frame.  I would think the packs could be disassembled and individual leafs removed if the ride was too harsh, or tall.  I'm not familiar with setting up car suspensions.  But my thoughts are with a strong V8, the old rear suspension is inadequate. I am having second thoughts about using 75 year old leaf springs.

 

I'm thinking about grabbing the pedals and m/c & brake booster, just in case, I don't have a plan for my pedal & booster yet.  Probably a bunch more stuff too, interior lights/under hood light/wiring pig tails/steering rack to send in as a Cavalier R&P core? It sucks living 2+ hours from a salvage yard, I want to keep everything, but just don't have the space.

 

There are some parts I'm grabbing for my 74 Bronco, and hopefully giving to my Early Bronco club to use on their club build.

Edited April 12, 2013 by gunnibronco

[Robert Horne]

The Mountaineer parts are a great find.    3.73 or 3.55 are great options.   I am happy with the 3.73 rear so far with my setup, but with a V8, the 3.55 would be a better choice.     Alot depends on your tranny choice.   The leafs, anti sway bar, etc. would be good to install also.     I used a Bronco master cylinder on my original pedal assembly, working good so far.

[mrwrstory]

Hey Gunni,

Just spotted your thread started 6-7 months ago.  Cool car.  Cool project.

Friends have installed the Fatman clip and are very satisfied with the ease of install and the ride and handling.

Two of my recent cars have had 3.5:1 rears with OD and that's a great combo.  I could have easily used a 3.2:1 where I live but think the 3.5 would be about as close to perfect for you at your "elevated life style" 

For my P-15, I opted for rear springs build locally by an old time spring shop.  You'd surely have a similar source in your area.  Most do a lot of truck work.  Even your Bronco buds may know of a source.  I'm not familiar with the diff. between your car and mine which may preclude what I did; however, my guy built the springs to use the stock P-15 mounts, bushings and shackles.  He also contoured them for a lower ride hight and installed an extra "half leaf" on top of the spring pack to restrict wrap on heavy acceleration.  My car has a Mopar 360 and OD trans.

Good luck and keep the project posts acomin.  We like lotsa pics too.  

[gunnibronco]

I may end up with a custom set of springs.  Actually I live in a town of 2500 people, so there just aren't lots of services available.  Alcan is in Grand Junction and they make custom springs, I live 2 hours from GJ, 3+ hours from Denver or Colorado Springs.  Makes things a little difficult, but worth it for the lifestyle.  The Explorer is 2000# heavier than the coupe, so they might be unusable. 

 

360 w/OD trans is exactly what I'm thinking right now.  Just need to find one, hopefully I'll find a 2wd Dodge truck, maybe.  2wd aren't prevalent around here, but they are cheap when they come up.  Passed up a 413 Industrial motorhome motor, too much to change (heads, water pump) and I don't think I want to try to shoehorn it in, on my first hot rod.  We do loose about 27% of the power at this elevation, its very noticeable.

[mrwrstory]

Supercharger!

[gunnibronco]

Ha, ha.  The 413 motorhome motor has 7.5:1 compression ratio.  Perfect start to a supercharger/turbocharger.  Just like sea level!

[Andydodge]

Gunni, unless the rear springs in your car are buggered there is no reason why the front bushes & rear shackles can't be rebuilt and just swap a later diff in........as for the front suspension upgrade to disc brakes and rebuild the front end with the shock relocation if need be and maybe do a steering swap if need be........as for an engine swap all small block mopar A series engines, ie 273/318/340 & 360 are essentially the same block & same diamensions with different bore/stock combinations so if one fits another will....the only caveat is that there are a number of different exhaust manifolds used and not all will swap between engines........the steering column is the main thing that gets in the way of a V8 swap..........andyd.    

[gunnibronco]

Thanks, I actually have a couple extra leaf packs, I have an extra rolling chassis.  So I should be able to come up with a good set.  I read about getting the packs rebuilt, I'll look and see if anyone in GJ or the front range does that.  

 

Probably do a Cavalier r&p, and move the motor to the right 1" or 2".  The Explorer rear ends are offset 2" to the passenger side. 

 

When the motor & trans are offset, can the trans & driveshaft still fit through the X frame member?  If anyone has any pics of an offset driveline, I'd like to see how close things get to the crossmember.

[randroid]

gunnibronco,

 

I'm not sure how I missed you earlier posts but I guess it doesn't matter.  Only thing I was going to add was that I lived in Estes Park (also at 8,000') for 20 years and the 218 in my '48 P-15 never faltered pulling any hills I aimed it up.  It was my daily driver for about ten years and never let me down.

 

You're largely on your own so far as parts are concerned but I feel some of your pain and may be able to help a little.  We have marvelous wrecking yard in Windsor (Miller's, I'll find their number if you're interested) and if you need a part I could conceivably pull it for you and have it waiting or ship it to you.  PM me and let me know if I can help.

 

-Randy

[gunnibronco]

Thanks for the offer.  I've become pretty creative sourcing parts, its really good to have contacts on the outside though.  Lots of the guys in my Bronco club put up with my whining about the lack of salvage yards here, and help me out too.  Car guys are some of the coolest people around.  

 

If you are down around Gunnison, let me know I'd like to meet up.  

 

I have to admit, I like the idea of the classic flat top 6 motor in the car.  But, this is my first real "old" car build, and I want to be driving it before retirement, so I'm going to keep some aspects "simple".  I've got some time, and hopefully I can source a cheap 2x4 truck with a decent driveline.  I don't mind rebuilding the motor and/or trans, if needed, I really expect to.  

 

If you run across a $500 Dodge with the 360 & OD, let me know.  That is close enough for me to come get.

 

Chad

 

Thanks again

[randroid]

Chad,

 

Nowhere near Gunnison, although I have loose ties to Crested Butte.  We're now living in the valley just south of Ft. Collins.

 

-Randy

[gunnibronco]

Not much has happened here.  I'm focused on finishing my house remodel.  Although I want to be done with my house, its really so I can start working on my car (and my daily driver 74 Bronco needs some TLC).  Hopefully in the next 6-12 months I'll start on this car.

 

I've been reading tons and have a much better idea how to tackle this project when I do get to work on it.  

 

I've stripped the Mountaineer (front brakes, rear axle, swaybars, I also grabbed the brake pedal & mc/booster set up just in case, and a bunch of odds and ends that I probably won't use, but you never know).  My Bronco club is going to take the rest for their club truck, EFI, and trans are great for an Early Bronco.  I already have the EFI on my truck, and don't want the automatic.  

 

I've also bought a 5.9L Magnum motor & 46RE trans, complete with PCM & harness.  Its a 4x4 but its fairly easy to swap over drive units to a 2x4 set up.  I think it will get installed as is, but plans will be to at least recam it with a custom cam for a car application.  Eventually, I'd like to stroke it, sounds like you can go 400"+.  I appreciate the older motors, but since mine already has a GM V6 w/blown freeze plugs, it's going away.  I'm so happy with my OBDI EFI on my Bronco, its hard to consider anything else.  I ran a carb for 15 years on my Bronco, but I'm no carb expert.  I've been reading up on using OBDII, and will be reworking the wireharness & getting my PCM flashed or buying a programmer, we'll see.  That is a long way off.

 

I found this bumper, I was kind of looking for the "peaked" bumper I had seen on some Dodges & Desotos from the same period.  I'm not exactly sure what years/models they came from, but this one is pretty cool and will look good on the P8.  I think its from a Diamond T, REO, or maybe a Mack JR.  I haven't found anything exactly the same, but those all look similar.  I drove 3+ hours(one way) on a Sunday morning to pick this up in Pueblo, CO.  As we were talking about my project, the guy started asking about my 39. He asked if I knew where there were anymore. I ended up selling him my whole "pile" of parts cars.  I sold the extra chassis, and a couple parts I wanted to keep, to make the deal, but it was worth it.  I got a lot of space back, and ended up with the best parts for my project.  I was really lucky to find that "pile" of Plymouth parts cars.  Lots of extra parts, I won't list what I got, because I feel a little guilty hoarding the awesome parts I have.

 

Chad

[Robert Horne]

Thanks, I actually have a couple extra leaf packs, I have an extra rolling chassis.  So I should be able to come up with a good set.  I read about getting the packs rebuilt, I'll look and see if anyone in GJ or the front range does that.  

 

Probably do a Cavalier r&p, and move the motor to the right 1" or 2".  The Explorer rear ends are offset 2" to the passenger side. 

 

When the motor & trans are offset, can the trans & driveshaft still fit through the X frame member?  If anyone has any pics of an offset driveline, I'd like to see how close things get to the crossmember.

 

I have a 95 Ranger rearend in my 38 Coupe, no problem with the driveshaft going through the X frame.