Battery woes

[spitfire]

Hey everyone. I've been battling with my car's charging system for a while, but have been losing. When I purchased it, the P.O. had installed a 6v battery that he had "lying around", so it would run. It worked ok enough, but was always weak, and then one day it died. I tried to charge it and after about 10 seconds, it would either cease to charge or the needle would jump from zero to a hundred percent. I tried this with two different working chargers.

So, I went out and purchased a new battery from Interstate. I think its a 650 cca (would have liked bigger, but I couldn't afford anything better at the time). After about a month (and maybe 400 miles), it acted up. I started it up one morning for my work commute and noticed that it cranked a bit slower than usual. Upon leaving work, I tried to start a car with a dead battery. I tried to charge the new battery, and once again, the guage on the charger tweaked out and wouldn't help me. Every time I've tried to charge the battery, its been with a charger set on 6v, positive to positive, negative to negative, battery disconnected from the car. I had it towed home. I removed the battery completely and hooked it up to a charger set on 6v. It charged! Well, it did for under an hour, and then the needle tweaked out again. So, I installed it, the car fired right up, and off I went for a drive. After almost not making it home, I ended up pulling the generator, finding brushes that were in horrid shape (one down to the copper wire), and crummy bearings. For the last couple weeks, I've repainted the generator, replaced the brushes, bearings, and polished the commutator on the lathe. I finished and installed it today, making sure to follow the instructions in my service manual about polarizing the generator. After trying to charge the battery again, I get the same results as last time. I am able to charge it for about 20 minutes, then the needle tweaks out or it says it's fully charged. I went and tried to start it, only to receive a few healthy cranks, which became slower and slower until I just got a solenoid click. I went ahead and checked the voltage of the battery and found that it was at around 6.5 volts, but I'm not sure how many amps it's carrying at the moment.

So, does anyone know what's going on? Could I have another bad battery? I have not been able to run it with the new generator, so I don't know if it works. I have two 6/12v chargers here at the house, one is ours and is fully automatic. The other is our neighbors and looks to be a few years older and not fully automatic (well, not when on 6v). Maybe this is stupid, but are these newer microprocessor chargers just unable to charge a 6v? If anyone has any ideas, don't hesitate to throw them out there. Many days out of my week have me working from 8-4 and then school from 6-10, so I don't have much time to do anything for it during the week, so I'd like to at least attempt at getting it running tomorrow. That way I don't feel like I wasted a day not getting it running .

Thanks everyone,

Dan

[greg g]

Is your generator producing a charge??? Are you installing it with positive to ground? What kind of cables do you have and are they in good condition. Have you checked the battery with a hydrometer, are all the cells full of electorlyte?

I put my 35 year old 6/12V batterycharger on my battery that sat in the garage all winter and its iinitial charge rate was about 5 amps, it droped over night to 2 and the hydrometer shows its at 98% putting out 6.2 volts. I have not yet tried to start the car but perhaps tomorow.

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html

[spitfire]

Hello Greg, thank you again for sharing your wisdom. That's the thing, I have no idea if the generator is producing a charge, as the car won't crank enough to get started. I haven't had it tested yet, I just intstalled it today. Either way, if the battery had enough juice, wouldn't it at least start anyway? It will crank some initially after charge, so I would think that the starter is getting what the battery has to offer. I am installing it with positive to ground. I do not have a hydrometer. The electrolyte level looks to be good and well over the plates. If the cables were bad, wouldn't it kick over intermittently, or act like a dead battery? Sorry, I just don't quite understand. I always figured that if the cables were going, and if the battery did have a full charge at the time of start, that maybe it would crank just fine sometimes and sometimes it wouldn't crank at all.

Thanks,

Dan

[Labrauer]

I would start to trace the wires on the car to see if there is a short somewhere that drains the battery down. You might check the ground wire to see if it is grounded good and also check the silinoid. These new chargers do a good job of charging if it is for 6 volt/12volt haven't had trouble with mine. The voltage on the battery is about right at 6.5. Hows the starter sound when the engine turns over. I would say that there is a short somewhere in the wiring that drains the battery just enough so that it has not enough power to turn engine over. Take a volt meter and check each connection to see what amps you are getting at the connection. Check what the generator is putting out with car running also. I don't know what generator you have but it should be around 35 to 40 amps on a 6 volt positive connection. Have you tried to jump it from another car after it is dead? Greg has put a great tutorial on batterys.

I'm sure there will be other feedbacks coming,

Larry Brauer

Edited April 3, 2011 by Labrauer

[randroid]

Larry,

I hope this doesn't sound too much like a cop-out but I once bought a new battery that went south within hours of installing it in my car. I took it back to the store where I bought it and it passed every test he could put it through and the only way I could convince him it was garbage was to put it in one of his trucks and have him try to start it.

I can only hope your answer is as simple.

OT - I praise anyone who will "go the extra mile" and attend school while working full time. What are you studying?

-Randy

[Niel Hoback]

I think by now I would have tried a different charger. Yours may be overheating and shutting off. Check the clamps for a good bite, too.

[P-12 Tommy]

I think by now I would have tried a different charger. Yours may be overheating and shutting off. Check the clamps for a good bite, too.

Good point Niel! I had a battery charger that did the same thing. It went in the circular file.

Tom

[Al B. Bach]

I don't know if I'm just lucky or something but when I went to Interstate to look for a new Optima battery for mine the guy came out and tested not only the battery but generator as well for free. He then proceeded to tell me that, other than some rather old looking wires, everything was fine. I was ready to buy a new battery but he talked me out of it because mine was fine. I love it when stores are honest to the point of loosing a sale. Needless to say, I will be going back whenever I need a new battery.

Inoticed in the tips section on the home page that many of our cars have had the battery cables replaced with 12 volt cables in the past. I would check that first to see if you have the proper cables. Otherwise I agree that it sounds like you have a short somewhere that is robbing your cranking power.

I'm a full time student in graphic arts working to become a logo designer. What are you going to school for?

Later,

Carl

[spitfire]

Hey everyone, sorry for the late reply. Thank you for the help, everyone, and thanks for the kind words, Randy. Randy and Carl, I'm taking a course at the local junior college for machine tool technology. I'm doing the whole major, which consists of multiple certificates. It's a total of 34.5 units and I only need to take one more 5 unit class next semester to complete it, as long as this semester goes as planned. I recently got this job, which is as a cnc operator in a small, local machine shop. My employers are customers and good friends of my dad's, who is a painter. I use to paint with him, but during this whole economic break down, the business has almost slowed to a halt. It's not until just recently that we received some work. It's nice to have a steady job in a promising business that has a steady flow of orders. Just some piece of mind.

Anyway, enough of my rambling. I'd like to give everyone an update on the car. I finally got it started after giving the battery just one more charge. I'm not quite sure why, other than the fact that it cranked nice and fast on a warm day. I also played with the negative cable (I found that it is a Packard cable). I drove it to a friends house and it didn't give me any trouble all that night, apart from a jumpy ammeter at times.

I drove it to work today, which also went swell. The trouble hit when I went home and it stopped charging. When I started it up to leave for school, it did the same. I usually let the car warm up completely before I give it any unnecessary throttle, but this time I wanted to see if it was charging. It wasn't. I decided to get out and inspect under the hood. I played with the cables, but no luck. I kept noticing a clicking. I found that it was coming from the voltage regulator. I gave it a couple of, errr, "taps", and checked the ammeter. Now, it would peg at 40a when I reved it. So, I shut it off and took a different car to school. For the last couple hours, I’ve been working on it. I took it out and apart, checked for continuity at the resistors and cleaned the contact points. I then reinstalled it. I hate admitting it, but I think I may have somehow screwed up the simple task of polarizing the generator. I never got any sparks the first time. I re-polarized it and now it seems to be all fine. If I rev it a little (with the lights on as well), it will go to the 30-40a range and then the regulator makes a small click, which brings the amperage down to 25. That seems totally appropriate to me. I took it for a spin, which allowed it to charge itself and by the end of the trip, the meter hung at around 5 amps while driving and at about 0 at idle (remember, this is at night with the head lamps on).

I think I will still replace the cables, but I think for now it's safe to drive until that gets situated. Besides, I'd imagine you could override the car's cables with some jumper cables anyway, if the cables did end up hindering more electron flow. Does the whole regulator click thing sound fairly normal to you guys? Thanks again for all the help. Without it, I would be dead in the water.

Dan

[greg g]

The regulator coils are electromagnetic motors which energize to close the points according to the state of the elecrical system. the clicking sound is related to their movement and or the sound of the points closing/opening against a spring. So while it isn't something that you should be able to hear in the car withthe engine running, it is something you might pick up as you listen under the hood.

I just posted some video clips I made yesterday after gettig my car out of the garage from its winter sleep. Because there have been may questions about gauges and readings and how they react, I did focus 2 or three times on the oil and amp gauge.

Take a look, I consider my gauges to be "normal" for a vehicle with a fully charged battery and properly operating charging system.

Glad you got your started and driving, sounds like it might be time to invest in a new regulator, though your's may prove to be OK.