OT Help with the points ignition on my Willys Wagon OT

[blueskies]

Hi Gang-

Having an issue with the ignition on my wagon, and thought I'd post here for the best sage advice on the net... Because I tossed out the points distributor on my Plymouth for an HEI unit, I didn't learn anything about points and how to troubleshoot the system.

I have been working on getting the wagon roadworthy, fixing this and that, here and there.

Now that it is drivable, I have been driving it lately, as much as possible, to find all the week links before I head out too far from home.

Last week my son and I drove the wagon over hill and dale looking for a deer in the back country. It ran perfectly all the way, about 80 miles of dirt, rocks, mud, deep rutted gulleys, and a stretch of highway back home.

I let it sit for a couple of hours while we had lunch, and went back out to check the oil. While I was under the hood, I looked over everything there for anything obvious, and noticed that the distributor hold down bolt for the timing adjustment wasn't tight, and I could turn the distributor a bit each way. I fired it up, thinking I'd time it by ear, and see where it ran best in the little bit I could rotate it either way. When I grabbed the distributor, it gave me a wicked shock that made my arm go numb... Once the feeling came back in my hand, I tightened down the timing bolt and let it run for a few minutes.

Shortly thereafter, it started running crappy, and would stall at idle. I restarted it a couple of times, and it got worse until it wouldn't start. I pulled the #1 plug and found no spark at all.

I have since replaced the coil and condenser, the points look fine and I re-gapped them to .020" per the manual I have. There is power to the + side of the coil from the key.

I have not checked the spark plug wires and the plug wire from the coil to the distributor cap. The ground wire from the - side of the coil to the distributor and the stuff inside the distributor look fine too.

What am I missing? It has to be something simple...

Thanks for your wisdom...

Pete

PS, the wagon is part Plymouth now, I rebuilt the generator when it crapped out with the front half of my left over '50 Plymouth generator...

[Don Coatney]

Pete;

Was your shocking experiance low voltage high amps (tolerable) or high voltage low amps (not tolerable)?

I suspect you may have a cracked distributor cap.

[StayFrosty]

A few things I would check:

1.) The coil wire. If it's got no spark at all it could simply be that the coil wire is loose on one end or the other. When this kind of stuff happens to me it's usually something simple like this. While you are at it, it may be a good idea to make sure all the plug wires are tight on both ends. Especially if you have had the distributor cap off a couple of times.

2.) Check the point gap. Turn the motor over with the distributor cap off and make sure they are opening and closing correctly. You can use a continuity tester to make sure electricity is moving across the points when they close. With the wire going from the coil to the distributor disconnected, hook an alligator clip to each side of the points. Slowly turn the motor over to make sure there is continuity. If there is not, visually inspect the points and if they are burned file or replace them as necessary.

3.) Check that the wiring inside the distributor is not grounding to the metal housing.

4.) Test/replace the coil.

[greg g]

If you got a shock from trying to turn the dizzy, You have something bad in that neighborhood. Since you provided a quick and dirty exit for the spark, I would look for a bad wire, bad boot, cracked cap, or signs of carbon tracking. both outside and inside the cap. If there was a bit of a leak, when you grabbed the dizzy cap, your skin oil and or sweat would have engoraged the spark to follow that path to ground rather than the spark plug wire even after you let go. Then the spark would follow and leave a track, for following sparks, kinda like ants leave a trail...

If everything looks good, give the cap a good cleaning with a light solvent, assure the plug wires are firmly seated and the tower caps are on good also. then when it gets dark, take a look under the hood withthe engine running to see if you have a light show,

If you do replace the wires and I would do the cap also.

usually bad points will effect performance thoughout the rpm range while a bad wire or cap will efffect one or two cylinders, If the spark gets weak enough will likely foul the related plug also.

Good to hear you and the boys are back at it again. Has business recovered any?? Hope so!! How old are the kids these days?

[blueskies]

Pete;

Was your shocking experiance low voltage high amps (tolerable) or high voltage low amps (not tolerable)?

I suspect you may have a cracked distributor cap.

Suffice it to say that I felt it for a while afterward...

The cap looks ok, but I'll look it over again, maybe I missed a crack somewhere.

A few things I would check:

1.) The coil wire. If it's got no spark at all it could simply be that the coil wire is loose on one end or the other. When this kind of stuff happens to me it's usually something simple like this. While you are at it, it may be a good idea to make sure all the plug wires are tight on both ends. Especially if you have had the distributor cap off a couple of times.

2.) Check the point gap. Turn the motor over with the distributor cap off and make sure they are opening and closing correctly. You can use a continuity tester to make sure electricity is moving across the points when they close. With the wire going from the coil to the distributor disconnected, hook an alligator clip to each side of the points. Slowly turn the motor over to make sure there is continuity. If there is not, visually inspect the points and if they are burned file or replace them as necessary.

3.) Check that the wiring inside the distributor is not grounding to the metal housing.

4.) Test/replace the coil.

I checked all but #1 on your list, that will be next. I regapped the points, and the coil is new. Didn't see any signs of bad wires inside the distributor.

Thanks,

Pete

[blueskies]

If you got a shock from trying to turn the dizzy, You have something bad in that neighborhood. Since you provided a quick and dirty exit for the spark, I would look for a bad wire, bad boot, cracked cap, or signs of carbon tracking. both outside and inside the cap. If there was a bit of a leak, when you grabbed the dizzy cap, your skin oil and or sweat would have engoraged the spark to follow that path to ground rather than the spark plug wire even after you let go. Then the spark would follow and leave a track, for following sparks, kinda like ants leave a trail...

If everything looks good, give the cap a good cleaning with a light solvent, assure the plug wires are firmly seated and the tower caps are on good also. then when it gets dark, take a look under the hood with the engine running to see if you have a light show,

If you do replace the wires and I would do the cap also.

usually bad points will effect performance throughout the rpm range while a bad wire or cap will effect one or two cylinders, If the spark gets weak enough will likely foul the related plug also.

Good to hear you and the boys are back at it again. Has business recovered any?? Hope so!! How old are the kids these days?

I'm thinking that it may be the distributor to coil wire, as there is no spark at all, and it won't start as a result.

Business is the same, pretty much none to speak of. I'm trying to get the wagon running on the cheap, no money to spend on it right now. I want to replace the wiring with a new harness and alternator to get rid of a bunch of stupid previous owner wiring messes, but for now just patching it up here and there. The generator front bearing crapped after about 20 miles, and seized up, smoking the belt. Had to get a tow back home. Dug out my old Plymouth generator and found that even though it was ten years older, it had the same case and front bearing/pulley. Swapped out the front half, and it works great and cost nothing to fix.

The boys are doing great, and are enjoying tinkering on the wagon between football, soccer, hockey, and homework. Never a dull moment around here...

Here's a few clips of the wagon in action: http://www.youtube.com/user/idahoblueskies Note that the incessant rattles and squeeks have been mostly silenced... It was a symphony of sound for the first ride in the hills... mostly because everything had been thrown together by the PO and hadn't even been tightened down.

Pete

[james curl]

Pete, if I had public roads like that here in Texas I would have to have an old Jeep just to go for the drive. I think some of it might be too steep for my 48 but I would be game to try. I love the little country lanes even if they are dirt, just love to see where they go and who lives on them. Might even see an old abandoned car or pick up I could buy. When I worked we had to inspect all of the open to the public ranch and farm strips, that was part of my job and out at the Big Bend ranch it was 25 miles of one lane dirt road back to the Hacienda from the highway then on two more miles to a 6000' lighted asphalt strip. I finally convinced them to close it to the public. Told them since no one but the local Mexicans who do not speak English and hid when a Gringo shows up that anyone who landed there in an emergency would die trying to walk out over 25 miles of desert. The State has since bought the ranch for a State Park, Big Bend Ranch State Park and gives bus tours to the Hacienda for lunch.

Edited November 2, 2010 by james curl
addition

[Don Coatney]

When you check the cap for cracks look inside very carefully. The cracks will be very small and hard to see.

[JerseyHarold]

I think I read once that if you shine a black light on the cap the carbon tracks will glow. Or maybe not...

[Don Coatney]

I think I read once that if you shine a black light on the cap the carbon tracks will glow. Or maybe not...

Good possibility. However I sold my blacklight sometime in the 70's.

Congrats on your 1000th posting.

[JerseyHarold]

Congrats on your 1000th posting.

Thank you. It took a while but I made it.

[blueskies]

Pete, if I had public roads like that here in Texas I would have to have an old Jeep just to go for the drive.

James-

Lots of back country dirt around here, from desert to mountain. The wagon makes much more sense for me than the Plymouth did. I can drive it year round in the hills and snow, and I'm not paranoid about scuffing the paint like I was with the Plymouth.

So far, it's been great fun. And a total mindset adjustment too, the Plymouth was a quiet cushy ride. The wagon is a tin can truck, rough and ready.

Pete

[Don Coatney]

James-

Lots of back country dirt around here, from desert to mountain. The wagon makes much more sense for me than the Plymouth did. I can drive it year round in the hills and snow, and I'm not paranoid about scuffing the paint like I was with the Plymouth.

So far, it's been great fun. And a total mindset adjustment too, the Plymouth was a quiet cushy ride. The wagon is a tin can truck, rough and ready.

Pete

So I guess your next Big Race will be to see who can get from point A to B in the slowest time:D

This framed poster you gave me is hanging on the wall in my office!!!!!

Edited November 2, 2010 by Don Coatney

[P-12 Tommy]

Great to hear from ya Pete! Looks like you and the kids are having a blast with the Jeep.

Tom

[blueskies]

So I guess your next Big Race will be to see who can get from point A to B in the slowest time:D

This framed poster you gave me is hanging on the wall in my office!!!!!

Happy to see you still have the poster Don, I have it's twin here....

Got my wagon running again this afternoon.

I did a few tests to make sure the coil was firing, and that the coil to distributor wire was good.

I decided to watch the points open and close as I cranked over the engine, to see if there was a spark there.

When I cranked it over with the cap off, there were sparks all over the place, but none at the contacts... I took the points out and looked them over carefully, and found that the part of the points that hinges open and closed had worked it's way down the hinge to the point that it was contacting the base of the points. In effect, the points weren't opening, and the coil wasn't firing as a result.

I ran over to the Parts-Plus and got a new set of points, $10, and put them in. Hit the key, and it fired right up...

I did find a couple of other issues in the process though. The spark plug wires are so bad I'm not sure how it runs. The ends that were put on at the distributor end of the wires were done incorrectly, and it looks like the spark must be jumping from the cap to the end of the wires because the metal terminals that are crimped on are on the outside of the wires only... Looks like new wires are next.

Also, when I hit the throttle, I noticed a little squirt of fuel jet out of the side of the carb and onto the manifold...

I tightened the screws on the carb and it seems to have stopped the little squirt. Might have to rebuild the carb too.

It is running, but missing a bit on takeoff. Might be the bad wires, might be the carb.

I think the points problem was a complete coincidence with looking under the hood the other day...

Pete

[greg g]

Pete the wires you can get for tractors at the Farm store for 15 to 20 bucks should be just the ticket for your old Jeep.