Maiden Voyage

[Guest mike_D24]

Well I got the dodge running. She was struggling a little bit, but I think the main cause was a low battery. I'm not sure of the life of the battery that was in there, but I have a feeling it's not bad. With the voltage differences, though, I didn't want to jump it from my other car. I bought a new battery, but I bet I don't need it. I bet I just need to charge the old one. Suggestions on how to charge? Do you suppose NAPA will take back a day-old battery?

Ok, so here are some new diagnoses:

1) Current is bouncing from 0 to <0 pretty consistently. Could that be why the battery was low? It may just not be charging?

2) The engine purred along nice and smooth, but I definitely had to work the clutch to keep the engine from stalling when I was in reverse. Could this be fluid drive fluid? Too viscous?

3) I did not have success coming to a stop in 3/H. The engine bogged and I pressed the clutch to save it. Maybe it is supposed to bog and I was being hasty. Again, fluid drive fluid?

4) The brakes are all but gone. They are good enough to stop the car from rolling away on a slight incline, but they are not good enough to stop the car from drive. I ordered new cylinders and hoses from NAPA and they should be in tomorrow. Front uppers and lowers and rears and hoses together cost about $400.

5) Wheel is real difficult to turn at parking lot speeds

6) suspension made no noise over speed bumps and did not bounce at all. Some of this may be because of low tires, but I think overall the suspension is decent for now.

7) Gear shift and clutch are so smooth I wasn't sure I was shifting. Since there were no brakes to speak of, I never went faster than 15mph, but I still got to drive in each gear.

8)a few of the dash items do not work

a)heater fan

b)windshield wipers

c)high beams? Not sure how to activate them, so I have no idea.

d)defrost? I don't really even know what that is.

9)Love the new interior. Super comfortable. I saw people peering through the windows one day just to gawk at it.

10) running temp seemed stable for the 20 minutes I had it running at low speeds.

11) that missing head from the head bolt seems not to cause the slightest issue, but that will still be on my "first-things-first" list.

The main conclusion I'm drawing is:

I need a baseline, because I don't know what to expect from this old car. I need to know what things are just "older car" things, what things are "old technology" things, and what things are "affordable and fixable" things. A car that doesn't stop, for instance, is an example of something that is "affordable fixable," whereas the feel of drum brakes is an "old technology" thing.

1) How hard should steering be?

2) How smokey should the exhaust be?

3) How much exhaust/gas smell should be in the cabin/under hood? (much of this will just be scrutinizing seals when the weather is better...) I have a terribly good sense of smell, and this may just be how older cars ran.

All in all, my 10mph run around my parking lot was an absolute trip. It also was encouraging to know that the major components (drivetrain) are in working order.

I can't wait to get elbow deep in this machine. I'm considering sanding, bondo-ing (or body compounding) the few rust bubbles, and taking it to maaco to see if they'll do a cheap primer for me. That way I can at least stop any further damage until I can get to the paint in about 5 months.

Between the 3 local mopar guys on this board that have already offered their help, and my recent discovery that I've got a resident mopar guru who works on my campus, I'm totally comfortable with diving into this project.

I'm rambling, I know, but I'm just still smiling from my D24's maiden voyage. The resurrection begins!

Mike

[1949P17BC]

1. Turning, make sure everything is well lubed and proper tire inflation, I had the same problem and it was the tire pressue (running goodyear ascension radials)

2. Smoke, depends what your comfortable with. My rebuilt motor doesn't smoke at all. After you get it running smoother, change the oil and filter and then try a little heavier weight. I had to do that also

3. Fumes, a big part will be if the motor is running too rich (Carb) and if its burning oil or has a lot of blow by (motor rebuild),, Having all of the proper seals in place should and will make a big difference.

4. Brake rebuild will make a huge difference, and drum brakes do feel differnt, but when properly rebuilt and adjusted you will be fine.

[Guest mike_D24]

3. Fumes, a big part will be if the motor is running too rich (Carb) and if its burning oil or has a lot of blow by (motor rebuild),, Having all of the proper seals in place should and will make a big difference.

Yup. I'm thinking that at this altitude, I should check to see the adjustments. Most carbed vehicles out here come way rich. Since I don't know it's maintenance history, I don't really know how much carb work has been done. I might even just pull it to clean it, too. I'm used to monitoring a tach to diagnose mixture. What's the trick for finding the right mixture on this car? Can I go by listen? Idle, climb, fall, etc.?

I don't think it's oil burning excessively, because it's not plumes, and the exhaust just smells a little unspent, but not like cooked oil. This could also be a factor of running rich.

Mike

[greg g]

Here are a few answers.

Steering is Armstrong Power, the more you steer, the more you get Arm Strong, the easier the steering is. If the car has been sitting a while ll the grease fittings in the front suspension are probably in need of fresh grease, this and properly inflated tires will make the stationary steering easier to a point, but never effortless.

Brakes, did you check the brake fluid level in the master cylinder? the access for this is under the floor mat/carpet about where your right foot falls when sitting in the driver's seat without reaching for the pedals, low fluid could be giving you an ineffective pedal (as well as a lot of age related stuff) but a full fluid reservoir may go a long way to giving you more effecive braking. Do notover fill the reservoir, as there should be some space for expansion and fluid return.

Your car should idle in gear againt the fluid drive with the brake applied. The idle should be about 450 to 500 rpm, pretty low by todays standards, There is also a dashpot on the carburetor that will keep the idle up a bit against the fluid drive. there is an electrical connection on this device, make sure the connection is clean and tight. ASLO VERY IMPORTANT, when the car is in gear, with fluid drive it will not have the compression braking that a regular standard shift car will have in gear, as the connectio to the engine is through the fluid and not mechanical. If you park the car on a grade, make sure your parking brake is working or the wheels are blocked with a brick or piece of wood or your car will roll away from you.

The Defrost takes place of the modern heater contro setting designated by the windshield with squiggly lines pictograph. It is a cable connected to a flap in the heater duct which will divert some air or all air toward the thin slots at the top of the dashboard. This warm air if given enough time will heat up the windshield glass to melt snow and ice or remove moisture from the inside (thing about 4 or 5 days running)

There should be no noicable smoke fromthe exhaust. It may go away after some running after the rings reseat from years of in activity. ( don;t count on it) Some hints about smoke color and smell.

Black smoke indicated excess fuel, and smell like gas,indicating a rich fuel air mix, usually caused by the choke not pulling off all the way. or a reterded spark advance. The choke is the top butterfly in the carburetor. when the engine is up to temp, it should be fully vertical. If a manual choke, make sure the cable opens it all the way. If automatic, is should close on a cold engine when you step ont eaccelorator pedal and stay closed until the engine begines to warm up and the thing on the manifold heats up and pulls the buterfly open.

Bluish white smoke usually indicates oil in the cylinders. It will smell like burning oil, and may increase or decrease with engine speed. Oil in the cyliders can be caused by worn rings, and or worn valve guides and seals. Worn valves and seals usually manifests itself by bellowing a bunch of smoke on startup and after idling a bit or after going around a sharp turn as oil will be pulled in at low speed due to high intake vacuum,then blown out as the engine speeds up, a steady amount of smoke at all running conditions usually indicates oil getting pushed past worn rings by crankcase pressure or sucked past them on the intake stroke.

Voluminous clouds of sweet smelling white smoke is antifreeze or water trunig to steam. This is usually the symptom of a bad head gasket or less likely a crack in the block or head adjacent to a cylinder.

You base line information will come from tried and true trouble shooting processes and tests.

Do a compression check of the cylinders

Do a vacuum test of manifold vacuum

Do a static timing procedure

assure the points in the distributor are clean and properly gapped

Install some new and properly gapped spark plugs

Assure you vacuum advance on the distributor is functioning

As far as you amp gauge reading, It will be zero if the battery is fully charged as the generator has nothing to do till the battery charge goes down. Check this by turning the headlights or signals with the engine running and idling. The needle shoud go to discharge (-) when the light are turn on and then go to (+) when you give it some gas. The signal light should cause it to go (-) when they flash and back to 0 when they are off. If you have no signals, tap the brakes and the needls should react to the brke lamp coming on. Also make sure your main battery cables are nice stout one at least as thick as your little finger. Lots of time over the years these get replaced with thin 12v style cables. 6V systems are based on current flow and skinny 12V wires won't carry the needed current. Also make sure they are clean and tight at all connections.

If your acquaintence at work is a motor head he should be able to help you with the compression gauge, and vacuum gauge, and the static timing procedure. Also go to the host page of this forum and read all the techincal tips, all the parts lists, and the general specifications page. alot of good basic information there.

http://www40.addr.com/~merc583/mopar/framesets/welcomeframeset.html

Good luck and enjoy. Sounds like you have an good solid car for you to minister to.

[1just4don]

Mike,

The very best way of determining how sound your exhaust system is,is open the hood before you start. The colder day you pick for this the better it works,till the point ya cant start it. Step on the gas one time to set the choke,like said, crank and hope she fires up. The COLDNESS will make any exhaust leaks REAL obvious real quick so if she fires,hop out and start looking,less wind is good for this too. Any exhaust leaks will be smoking like a chimney in heat!!! It lessens as it warms up!! Also passing your hand anywhere near,and feeling any heat to start with is a good place to look. Is the muffler rusted out or sound?? That would be the first place to look if your getting gassy inside.

I had a hunting car that was always that way. We abused it so bad it refused to leave the muffler intact or on!!! IF anything it got a piece of tin wrapped around it held on with farmers bale'ing wire(to hold down the roar) You dont want to even know where we drove that thing,,,back in the late sixties!!! Made one hell of a hunting car for teenage kids that didnt know any better!!! Ever hear a shotgun go off accidently in the back seat,driving down the road at night?? Enough to scare the pgeejas out of ya,,,didnt know quite what to expect,

Good luck on the brakes,,,are they just spongy and you can 'pump' them 'up' a bit??? Then you might just have air in them,,,I never could get all of it out of mine.(back then). If they are soft and go down on you,they are bypassing somewhere and loosing pressure. Any visible leaks on any inside wheel bottoms or backing plate?? never did a master cylinder in them either,when I always asked dad if we could get the brakes fixed better,his standard reply was dont drive so fast. Good luck to saying that to a 16-18 year old wild eyed kid.

Have tons of fun--d--

[PatS....]

Greg pretty much covered it for you. I can add this Carter guide to help with the carb adjustments.

[Guest mike_D24]

Thanks, Greg.

I've been reading the mainsite daily. I've actually been reading some of the same stuff over again to make sure it makes sense. It does.

Now it's just a matter of time, space, and resources.

Thanks for that post. It was very informative.

Mike

[Guest mike_D24]

I'm going to print that. Thanks!

[1just4don]

GREAT GREAT info directly above!!

One more thing to be sure of IF your car has been primarily stored for most previous years is---Check the air cleaner element, oil bath still I am guessing, drain and change the oil,,,check for mouse nests anywhere inside and wash out the filter element with some gas. Make sure your getting enough air flow thru there, if not it runs rich and washes cylinders. I have had similiar air cleaners plum full of mouse crap in the space of a week. Plus numerous dead meece carcasses. Dont suck TOO much crap thru the motor. And an over full cleaner might throw a little oil down the carb into the cylinders and mimic oil burn!! Huge amounts of bypass pressure forces oil out of the crankcase vent and leads to probs too. Some is normal and fine!! Some mouse protection from them crawling inside there 'might' be prudent. like 3/8" sceen with a hose clamp over it,,,if it works for you. Mice are engines worst nightmare. I drive a modern pickup and see they built a nest on top of the motor again,,,and I drive it nearly every day and have tons of cats around it. cant park a car or pickup in a shed cause the mice move in!!(overnight) Specially IF you leave any corn kernels in there or sunflower seed anywhere. They clean out a glovebox of seeds in a week. Then get stuck and die in my defrost fan of my little jeep type car,,,drives the fan way out of balance and squeals for a year till they dry up enough to stand the setting on high. Gives me the willies to see a mouse scurrying around the floor while I am driving down the highway,,,dont know when they will crawl up my leg.

Keep the meeces out of your beauty.

[Guest mike_D24]

Thanks. I'll check for vermin.

[Guest mike_D24]

Thanks. That's kind of what I figured about the electric choke, but your description cleared things up well. Thanks for the carb brand, too. I have a feeling mixture and idle will be key for performance, then. I'm going to start with air (since I need to lean out the car, anyway), starting with filter and working my way down. Then I'll look at fluids. I bet, with how smooth it's running, that rings and top-end rebuild can be postponed for a while.

Thanks for the tip on the Fluid Drive plug. Everyone has one of those stories. My feeling is others are always helped every time the story is told.

Mike

[Jeff.P_46]

Hi Mike,

I would keep the NAPA battery. Batteries typically only last 5 years before they start breaking down. As for the brakes, you could have saved alittle bit of money if you would have bought them from Andy Bernbaums. But a word of caution there as I was warned by the "experts here on the forum" to check what you get from Andy's. I ordered 4 front cylinders from Andy's ($21 ea) and 3 of them came in sealed and part numbered bags, the 4th was in a zip lock (1st clue). I popped the rubber caps off of all of them to check the bores and the one in the zip lock was frozen so I had to send it back.

Jeff

[Guest mike_D24]

Batteries typically only last 5 years before they start breaking down.

Shelf life or from useage? Can I just let the battery sit until the other one dies?

And still curious what the best way to charge the battery is. I have a trickle charger for my bikes, but the amperes and voltage are wrong.

I still need to figure out what's making the amp meter bounce when the engine is on.

Thanks for the info.

Mike

[BobT-47P15]

Aside from the battery probably needing a charge, the source of bouncing amp needle could be voltage regulator. And/or generator. Is the gen putting out adequate charge (around 7 or 8 volts) needed? If you have an automotive electric shop around, they can probably check that stuff for you real quickly since that is the kind of thing they do. Otherwise, you can check it yourself with proper meters and hookup. Be sure to first clean your connections to regulator, gen, distrib, etc.

Does this car have the large diameter battery cables, like O gauge.....or have they been replaced by the smaller 12 volt type. Needs the larger cables for best current flow. Mine actually did OK for a number of years with smaller cables, but when I put on the double ought gauge lately.....it turned over a lot faster.

I charge my battery with a 6/12 volt trickle charger that I've had for a long time---works fine. Just be sure to hook it up correctly. Remember these old MoPars are positive ground originally.

[Jeff.P_46]

Hi Mike,

Once a battery is in use it has a limited life. The charge/discharge cycles slowly uses up the electrolyte and cell plates. A typical battery should be charged to 120% of it's stated voltage and can be safely discharged to 85%. so a 12v battery should be charged to 14.4v and can discharge to 10.2v.

Jeff

[randroid]

Mike,

You've just gotten several lifetimes of advice and I agree with everything that has been written, especially the part about the meeces. Ugh! How they squeek and we eek and they charge and we jump on a stool in the kitchen and cling our skits above our knees. Nobody notices that we've wet ourselves, ever so lightly.

I would suggest that when you lube it you don't just fill the zerks until the seals swell, but rather you keep pumping it through the fitting until fresh grease comes out. Thing is, the molecules of grease are composed of strings while most other petroleum products just kinda hang out, but after awhile those strings break down and lose their ability to function the way they where intended to protect your investment.

I know that's the expensive and messy way to go but for me to admit that I'm wrong you're going to have to give a powerfull argument as to why grease that has been doing it's job for twenty years is at least as good as grease that's brand new. You only need to do this about once every five or ten years but you need to do it for the first time to get the ball rolling. It never hurts to jack the car enough to remove all tension from what you're trying to lube, and try not to get too pissed about the globs of grease on the floor because you forgot to lay down newspapers to catch them.

Once you get everything inflated and lubed you'll be able to suffer the joy of diving a car that has an 18.5" diameter steering wheel for a good reason.

Welcome to the club. May God have mercy on your soul.

-Randy

[blueskies]

4) The brakes are all but gone. They are good enough to stop the car from rolling away on a slight incline, but they are not good enough to stop the car from drive. I ordered new cylinders and hoses from NAPA and they should be in tomorrow. Front uppers and lowers and rears and hoses together cost about $400.

A car that doesn't stop, for instance, is an example of something that is "affordable fixable," whereas the feel of drum brakes is an "old technology" thing.

Mike

Mike-

I think you'll be surprised at how well the "old tech" drum brakes work, once you get them adjusted and working like they are supposed to.

I replaced all of the master cylinder, wheel cylinders, lines, and shoes on my '50 Plymouth, hoping that it would be worth the cost... and I see no need to upgrade to a disc setup at this point. I drive my car daily in the summer, in all kinds of situations, from a country dirt road to clogged high speed freeways to miles of 10% grades, and I've never been nervous about the drum setup.

This is, of course, because the system is working as good as it did when it rolled off of the line in 1950. I wouldn't trust the system at all if I had not gone through it piece by piece. And, obviously, the system will never have the vault-you-through-the-windshield stopping power of modern discs, but my car was driven for 57 years on drum brakes without a problem.

Something that has been debated over and over again on this forum is the need to adjust the shoes with the AMMCO tool. I'm an ardent believer in the tool, and wouldn't adjust the brakes without it. I don't believe that you can accurately get the shoes centered in the drum with the correct clearances by using the blind "feel" method. The tool is a drum micrometer and a brake shoe guage. It measures the inside diameter of the drum and transfers that to the shoes, allowing you to PERFECTLY adjust the heel and toe to the correct clearance and center them in the diameter of the drum at the same time. This just simply can not be done with the drum in place, when all you can tell is if the shoes are dragging somewhere on the drum. For the brakes to work at their best, the shoes need to contact the drum all along their length, not just the heel or toe.

You can make a facimilie of the AMMCO tool if you can't find one to borrow or buy. I'll even lend you mine, if you want to pay the shipping.

Once you get the brakes working like they are supposed to, you will be motoring with an even bigger grin from ear to ear!

Pete

[Guest mike_D24]

That was fantastic, Pete, thanks. Man, this thread is getting quite valuable. I'll let you know about shipping for the gauge. I may take you up on it.

Thanks again!

Mike