My first time with Plymouth brakes....

[Mr. Belvedere]

I am nearly through with a minor overhaul of the brakes on my '54. The guy that sold me this car was a lying snake oil salesman who did everything half assed on my car, and yes I do have sucker tattooed on my forehead! I can tell you that I would never have even taken a test drive in this car had I known what awful condition the brakes were in, I can't believe they even stopped the car. Never having driven a car of this vintage I did not have any idea how the brakes should respond. He told me it was normal to have to give them a pump here and there to get a firm pedal while driving. I thought this sounded suspect but had nothing to compare it to. Well, all the wheel cylinders were shot, rusted and full something akin to jelly, not brake fluid. The brake lining on three wheels were saturated in brake fluid. The return spring on left rear drum was broken. Oh did I mention cracked brake hoses! Well being a man of very limited means right now and having a parts car from which I could draw parts from, I went to work.

My parts car that has not been driven in 15+ years had good brake shoes and border line wheel cylinders that I went ahead and rebuilt, I did replace one wheel cyl. and I replaced all the hoses, pulled the return spring from the parts car as well. Turned the drums, adjusted the brakes as per the recommended method on this site. It is all back together, and I am wondering what is the best way to bleed a pretty much dry, except the master cyl., system? Where should I start? Thanks, Mr. B

[Normspeed]

Sounds like it's all working out well. I'd bet the fluid in the MC is pretty scuzzy too. Might want to borrow the turkey baster and suck out the old goop. I use the tube and jar bleeding method, it works well and can be done by one person. Takes a little while and you need to move the tube and jar around to each wheel. It's easiest if you have the car up on 4 stands. Push a length of clear vinyl tubing (like pet shop aquarium tubing) firmly onto the bleeder screw. Put the other end in a large jar with enough fluid in the jar to submerge the end of the tubing. Open that bleeder, slowly push the pedal to the floor, slowly return, keep doing that while you or your assistant watches the bleeder line. It will expel air on the downstroke. Check the MC level frequently. When that line is purged, it will only expel clear fluid on the downstroke, no bubbles. Close that bleeder, move to the next. I would buy a big container of fluid, and by the time you thoroughly do this process, you'll have clean fluid throughout the system. I usually go RR, LR, RF LF and I do a second round of bleeding. See how many times you can knock over the jar of used fluid:D

[greg g]

And while you are knocking around in the MC reservoir, make sure the relief hole is clear. There are two holes in the bottom of the master cylinder. One in front of the other, both should be clearly visible. If you can't see them a piece of thin wire worked about will usually uncover them and clear them of rust scale of other debris. One serves to allow fluid to get to the piston and be pushed through the lines, and the other hole serves to allow fluid to return tothe reservoir. No retrun, no release of pressure. No release of brake shoes from the drums. Also the cap has a vents in it and these should be clear to allow air to move into and out of the reservoir. And finally do not over fill the reservoir. These should be 1/8 to 1/4 inch of airspace above the fluid. This will allow for expansion due to abient temps.

[Norm's Coupe]

One more note to expand on the others comments. When you put the clear hose on the bleeder to the jar, tie a couple of bolts or nuts to the hose end going into the jar or can. That will hold the end of the hose down under the brake fluid and not allow air to be sucked back into the cylinder or line. Otherwise the hose will float to the top and suck air in.

[Mr. Belvedere]

Thanks for all the good tips:) I will be trying it tomorrow morning, sure hope all my rebuilt wheel cylinders hold, some of them I had to hone quite a bit, would ordinarily just replace em but I am kinda short on funds at the moment, I figure it cant be anymore dangerous than the way it was before.

As an footnote to the brake adjustment section, I would like to mention that if you file wrench flats on the brake shoe anchor bolts so you can adjust them from the backside with the brake drum in place, you may want to consider going with thinner nuts instead of the originals. I ran into a problem on a few of mine where after you got the anchor bolt adjusted right where you want it, when I went to tighten it, the bolt would spin with the nut a little which would screw up your adjustment setting before you could tighten the nut and lock it into position. Since the original nuts are so thick there is not enough of the bolt sticking out beyond the nut to hold it in the correct position while you tighten it. So I went to the hardware store and bought new thinner nuts so I could hold the anchor bolt in the correct spot while I tightened the nut.

[Niel Hoback]

I took all the anchor bolts out and used a hacksaw with two blades together in it to saw a slot in the threaded end of each bolt. When I got the adjustment where I wanted it, I used a screwdriver to hold it there while I tightened the nut. It worked pretty good with only very slight movement.

[Normspeed]

You're talking about the front anchor bolts?

[PatS....]

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=6546

[Mr. Belvedere]

You're talking about the front anchor bolts?

Actually, I used the thinner bolts on all shoe anchor bolts except the lower fronts, as they are castleated, and those bolts stuck out a little further beyond the bolt so I could hold and tighten simultaneously.

[Mr. Belvedere]

PatS....Believe me that is very tempting, after all the work I have been thru on what I thought would be a simple job. Should be easier from now on though....hopefully.

[Normspeed]

I did a different approach on the front anchors. I dismantled them, cleaned them and cleaned the bores they ride in, very lightly greased them, re-assembled using red locktite on the nut only. Brought the nut up tight but not to where things were binding. Let the loctite cure for a few hours. Then, the nut will turn the anchor bolt ok.

[Mr. Belvedere]

Well after inhaling lungfuls of asbestos brake dust and accidentally spraying caustic brake cleaner in my eye. I took the fianal step and bled the brakes. Now what do I have for all my troubles... a mushy pedal and brakes that seem to want to stay out to the drum. Very annoying after being on my hands and knees for alot of hours the last three days. The master cylinder was fairly clean when I went to bleed it, the fluid was black but there was no sediment or debris. Both holes in the bottom of it were open. I started with the furtherest away wheel cyl. as Norm suggested then followed around the car closer and closer to the M.C. In the front I bled the bottom cylinders first. I bleed each wheel tell I saw no more air bubbles for a few pumps then moved to the next one. I used roughly one and a half large containers of brake fluid. Maybe, I have not bled it enough or the M.C. is shot too and can't hold pressure. When finished I pumped the brakes a few times to see how solid it felt. Then I tried to spin each drum and found that on three wheels the shoes where now dragging quite a bit so I readjusted them till they loosened up. Then pumped the brakes again and rechecked only to find the same thing again??? Not sure what thats about..

[Normspeed]

It's a pain in the neck but the major adjustment is pretty much required after the shoes are changed. Did you do that using some kind of measuring tool, or the seat of pants method? Also, heckuva time for me to mention it, but did you use any lubricant like high temp grease where the brake shoes contact the spring clips and backing plate? Return springs all hooked up in the correct holes? If the pedal is slightly low, but pumps up in a pump or two and then stays firm, I would take a little spin and use the brakes for plenty of stops. Then, try re-adjusting after they've had a few miles on them.

[Mr. Belvedere]

Hey Norm, I actually thought about lubing those points you mentioned, but didn't cause it did not look like it had been done before and because I did not recall reading it in the manual, but I can't see what it would hurt. If I recall right, my shoes only had one hole to put the springs in, I am going to end up pulling the drums off again most likely anyway so no sweat on the info timming.

shel...I did a major brake adjust after putting everything back togather, I don't have a special tool for setting brake shoe clearance but I followed the advice given in the tech tips section of the website, on major brake adjustment. When I adjusted them the first time I set them so I could just hear a very slight drag while spinning the drum. So they should be good and close. Now its like they won't fully retract. I guess I will do some more bleeding as well, brake fluid is cheap. When I depress the brake pedal I can see fluid squirting back into the reservoir thru that smaller hole in the bottom of the M.C. so I know its not blocked, but is that normal? Thanks, Mr.B

[blueskies]

Mr B.

We've had the discussion here before about the ammco tool, and I'm one of the advocates of using the tool. It's my judgement that the shoes cannot be correctly aligned with the drums for the best braking performance without the tool. The only thing you can tell for sure with the "feel" method is if the shoes are draggin on the drum. There is no way to tell if the entire surface of the shoe is contacting the drum, unless you use the tool. And if only a portion of the shoe is contacting the drum, the braking effectiveness is dimished substantially. I found when adjusting my brakes that the minor adjustment effects the major adjustment, and vice versa. I had to adjust them both several times to finally get the shoes in the right place.

That said, I think the shoes sticking against the drums is a seperate issue. It could be two things, the master cylinder is not releasing, or the wheel cylinders are not releasing. Seems if it was the master cylinder, it would be all four or maybe a pair, not three. But I may be wrong....

I used a pressure bleeder to bleed my new brakes system. You can buy a bleeder take like this one for about $40, or make your own without the guage attached for about $12 out of a garden sprayer. I used a second master cylinder cap, tapped a hole in it, and connected the hose with a brass nipple. Worked great, no pumping of the pedal. Just pressureize the tank, and open the bleeder screws one at a time till the air is gone. I used a whole lot of brake fluid to get all the air out, more than I ever imagined. But once the air was out, my brakes work like new.

It it were me, I would pony up for a set of wheel cylinders and a new master, even if it took me a while to save up for them. I think you will have issues with the used stuff indefinitely, and never be happy with the performance. I replaced the entire brake system on my car for about $500 with new parts from Kanter. You might be able to find the stuff for less by shopping around.

Hope you get it figger'd out!

Pete

[Alexander]

Pete I see you used DOT 5 silicon fluid. How do you like it?

Did you have a hard time with the pressure bleeder agitating the fluid and introducing small bubbles in to the system?

I too used silicon fluid when I re-did my brakes. However mine are not perfectly firm. I wonder if i still have air in them. I am considering buying a pressure bleeder and trying again

Thanks

Alex

[blueskies]

Pete I see you used DOT 5 silicon fluid. How do you like it?

Did you have a hard time with the pressure bleeder agitating the fluid and introducing small bubbles in to the system?

I too used silicon fluid when I re-did my brakes. However mine are not perfectly firm. I wonder if i still have air in them. I am considering buying a pressure bleeder and trying again

Thanks

Alex

Alex-

My brakes work great, I imagine that they work as well as they ever did. I've never had a worry about them not working like they should.

When I used the pressure bleeder, I was carefull not to get too much pressure on the system to agitate the fluid. It took me a long time to get the air out, because I did not bench bleed the master first (mistake...) I think I went through about a gallon of dot 5, and the stuff ain't cheap...

Pete

[Alexander]

Pete Thanks for the input.

I wonder if that’s my problem?- I did not bench bleed the master cylinder. How does one bench bleed?

When bleeding my system, I stopped seeing air bubbles after about 1 cup of fluid was purged per wheel. Wow if you used 1 gal, then perhaps I still have air?

How do you feel about re-using the purged fluid that came out of the wheel cylinders while bleeding? Rather then buy more fluid I am very tempted to re-use it as the system was/is new.

Thanks

Alex

[blueskies]

Pete Thanks for the input.

I wonder if that’s my problem?- I did not bench bleed the master cylinder. How does one bench bleed?

When bleeding my system, I stopped seeing air bubbles after about 1 cup of fluid was purged per wheel. Wow if you used 1 gal, then perhaps I still have air?

How do you feel about re-using the purged fluid that came out of the wheel cylinders while bleeding? Rather then buy more fluid I am very tempted to re-use it as the system was/is new.

Thanks

Alex

I'm not sure about re-using the spent fluid... in my case, I didn't think I would use much, and wasn't carefull about keeping the collected stuff clean. The container I used was re-used from something else, so I decided to get rid of it...

I bled the system four times. The first few times, I had a bit of soft in the pedal that would go away with one pump of the pedal. Once all of the air was out, the pedal was solid.

Pete