Scarebird question for my P15 disc brake forum members

[3046moparcoupe]

I sent this email with pics to Scarebird a few minutes ago, regarding mounting up the brake hoses to the calipers on my Scarebird brake kit. I would also appreciate any feedback from members who have installed the Scarebird front disc  kit on your P15's. Thanks for the help. 

Steve

 

 

To

Scarebird

 

Today at 12:08 PM

Scarebird,

 

Question please in regards to connecting hoses on front calipers.

I've attached three pics in reference.

Question is in regards to the proper clocking/routing of this brake hose. In attached pic#2 (4888.jpg) you can see the angle of the hose to caliper banjo connector.

 

Question: Initially I loosely mounted this hose up with the hose angle pointed inward (away from routing over the top of the caliper). I did this because mocked up, with crush washers, it aligned up and fit square, nothing hit. But the hose route was tight and did not look like the route I saw in my paperwork. Then I had the brain fart to turn the steering a full left to right, which showed that the hoses would hit the shock absorbers. So I flipped it over and attached as in pic #1 (4887.jpg), pic#3 (4893.jpg) and noticed that the hose route now looked much more like the zerox copy pic I rcvd with my kit.

 

To mount the hose as shown in pic#1 and #3, approx. 1/16th + inch had to be filed away from the lip/edge of the caliper to allow the base of the banjo conn fitting to clear the caliper housing evenly on all sides. (You could see it in the crush washers, as you got snugger with the bolt, the washers were cocking high on the side where the brake hose exits the connector, due to that angle of the connector.  Also, with the banjo connector mounted in this position on the caliper, one of the flat edge's of the banjo connector is parallel with the molded cast iron anchor tab of the caliper, however it's not an interference fit at all - there's a small gap present that would allow the banjo connector to move some before the edge of the connector would come in contact with the cast iron tab block..

 

Am I anywhere close to having this right ?  Should the Banjo bolt, when tightened down to adequately crush the crush washers be enough to hold this hose in place ?

 

Trying to be pro-active on this end, although I'm quickly seeing where my years of replacing parts on vehicles can fall short, when it comes to experience and knowledge.

 

Thanks again for your help, ( rounding third almost home with this, I should be good to go after this ).

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

[medium_jon]

I'm not sure about the banjo fitting, but I plan to move the brake line to behind the suspension on my Scarebird conversion. 

[martybose]

It looks to me that the caliper bleeder valve is down by the steering arm, which means that you have the calipers mounted on the wrong sides of the car.  The bleeder valve is always the highest thing on the caliper so they can be used to get the air out when bleeding the brakes.

 

Marty

[Andydodge]

Marty is right, the bleed screw should always be at the top or highest point.............andyd

[3046moparcoupe]

Andy and Martybose, I really appreciate the reply's back guys,....and I see what your thinking is the bleeder valve down low in the picture (but what your confusing with the bleeder valve is actually the tie rod adjustment nut and bolt), the bleeder valves are on top, I have the bleeder valves covered with the yellow masking tape to keep crap out of the hole in the bleeder valve while I'm messing with this)....the reply I got back from Scarebird was ( to rotate the brake hose end at the caliper down 90 degrees ).

 

[3046moparcoupe]

I believe I've figured out a better way to ask this question regarding the routing of the hoses. If someone out there who has done this scarebird disc kit could look and let me know back.......there is an angle to the banjo fitting connector on this hose and depending on which way you flip it when connecting it to the caliper, the hose is gona either route back towards and over the caliper or route away from the caliper    - " so does the brake hose point away from the caliper when connected, or does it point toward the caliper when connected ? " 

The only way, I can lower the routing of the hose as Mark at Scarebird suggested,....would be to flip the hose over and attach it so the hose routes away from the caliper. Initially this was my 1st choice in mounting the hose, but when I turned my steering full circle, with the hoses attached in this way, the brake hose on the passenger side came up against the side of the shock absorber....I spent some time today looking closer at this hose touching the shock thing, and it appears that the hose it just  touching the shock, no more,...maybe I can adjust the steering stop post out a bit to eliminate this,.....

Simple but obviously sure has me stumped...

Thanks

Steve

[Andydodge]

AAAHHH..........now I see it more clearly....lol.................will now open mouth wider to change feet.......lol..........andyd

[Andydodge]

I'm not much help re this or any other US brake adaption as I adapted Oz Leyland 11" discs 40 yrs ago but the hoses should in theory and practice not touch any part of the steering or suspension............andyd

[3046moparcoupe]

No Andy, I appreciate you replying back,..this should be grade school simple and I've been staring at it for 2 days now....embarrassing to say the least. I've heard that with "kits" there are things you almost always have to tweak,....and sure enough, for example here, the brake hose end where it connects to the brake hard line at the frame with the clip,....has a round hole in the hose brkt.....the new hoses spec'd out for this application all have an hexagon shaped bezel that won't fit inside the anchor brkt. hole opening .  So I took my file and rounded the edges of the octagon shaped bezel until it would slide inside the brkt hole. Very simple really, but it leads me to wonder what else needs modifying that isn't found in any instructions....

Steve...

[medium_jon]

Here are close up photos of the banjo fittings for my conversion to Scarebird disc brakes. This is Napa part number 36845. Supposedly they are 15" front brake hoses for a 1979 Cadillac Seville. 

Indeed, as @3046moparcoupe said, they aren't 'round'. What kind of Banjo looks like that? 

33 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

the hoses should in theory and practice not touch any part of the steering or suspension............andyd

 

@Andydodge: that is what I assumed. I couldn't see how the hoses could go around the suspension towards the front of the car and not rub the suspension components. So I'm going to move the clip that holds the non-banjo end of the hose to the caliper side of the suspension. It shouldn't be too hard to remove the bracket, drill and tap two holes. I don't have a welder but it might be quicker to weld the bracket. My son is learning this week how to do some basic welding -- I'm envious. That is a skill I have never learned. 

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by medium_jon

[3046moparcoupe]

Well I've been stuck on this too long,  time to make a decision and move forward. (that said - this reminds me of a little game I play out in the garage when working. typically when doing metal work, I'll be going back and forth between my die grinder, wire wheel, and disc grinder,..all of which plug into the electrical outlet/extension cord.....I'll grab the cord and just try to plug it in without looking at which blade on the plug is the wider blade and which blade is the thinner,...a person should have a 50/50 chance of getting it correct !! right  I don't believe I've ever gotten the plug clocked correctly the 1st time,..I mean EVER,...honestly kinda freaks me out how anyone could be wrong every time......oh well - enough of my little game.....in regards to these hoses......

Mark from Scarebirds reply back was, " to rotate the banjo connection at the caliper down 90 degrees " reference where I had the hose mounted in the previous pictures shown earlier in this post " so I made a note of his reply.....then I had the brain fart to mount up the wheel and tire onto the hub to see how things looked with that introduced into the mix....at 1st things looked ok, but as I turned the wheel through the entire steering range circle, the brake hose got very close to the edge of the rotor disc and the tire itself, again - does not look right...and remember I had to file off material from the edge of the caliper to get the hose to even try and tighten up evenly and not be cocked, in this configuration.....(honestly that was a big flag in my mind that the hose shouldn't be mounted this way, but the opposite end of the hose which attaches to the frame brkt had to be filed on since you can't put a hexagon shaped connector bezel into a round hole :), so maybe this end of the hose has to be modified as well ?.....I hope you can see where I'm going with this - it just seemed like there was no way I could figure this out by trying to use common sense or read between the lines...

So I flipped the hose over to take advantage of the inward bend created by the way the banjo connector is angled and re-attached....with the hose flipped over and mounted this way, it clears the caliper and routes down much lower on it's path towards the frame brkt. Away from the rotor, away from the edge of the tire, but touching the side of the shock absorber when steering turned fully to either the right or the left....I remembered the steering stop posts located on the inner lower area of the a arm, kinda tucked in behind the spindles....and adjusted then out a couple turns which limited my steering travel back a bit and thus prevented the brake hose from hitting the side of the shock absorber. Felling a bit better about the track I was on, I then again rotated the front end through the entire steering circle and found that when fully turned either direction, each hose will come up against the vertical post (support assembly) that connects the lower A arm to the upper A arm,....nothing I can do about it, and this area of the hose that does touch this vertical support has an extra approx. 5" section of protective rubber tubing shrunk down on the hose..also as best I can tell, this vertical support looks to me like it would move vertically in unison with the hose.

Mounting up the wheel and tire onto the hub really gave a different perspective to this, but still in the back of my mind I can't help but wonder about that old 50/50 chance thing I keep up with on me getting things wrong, always 1st run through,....so more than likely, I'm wrong with all this,.....we'll see  as it also dawned on me that with the car being up on jack stands, certainly it will all look different when it's lowered and sitting on it's own shoes....but that will be no time soon...

I want to get the brake system buttoned up and full of fluid asap to prevent corrosion, I guess when I find out I'm wrong in my hose routing, it won't be super difficult to re-do the hoses and flip them over. I was just hoping to maybe get it right the 1st time and to avoid the additional brake fluid mess and re-bleeding,......crush washers are cheap.

IT WOULD HELP GREATLY TO KNOW, IF SOMEONE OUT THERE CAN LOOK AT THEIR SCAREBIRD CONVERSION, TO LET ME KNOW IF THE ROUTING OF THE BRAKE HOSE IS LEAVING THE CALIPER POINTING BACK TOWARDS THE CALIPER OR POINTING AWAY FROM THE CALIPER ??  IF YOU LOOK YOU'LL SEE EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN.

THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR CONTINUED HELP. THIS FORUM HAS SOME SUPER TALENTED FOLKS THAT ARE PATIENT AND WILLING TO HELP.

[Andydodge]

Steve......whilst my disc adaption is an Oz setup you can see that the brake hose uses a banjo fitting same as the Scarebird setup but I have the hose going at the rear of the suspension, in fact it uses the original Dodge hose chassis bracket that is held onto the chassis with 2 bolts, I don't have them or it pictured but they are shown(the holes at least) in the post of yours just behind the upper shock mount...........by using this bracket my brake hose travels behind the spindle and shock absorber to this chassis mount bracket and does not come into contact with either the spindle or stub axle on hard lock...............btw it seems that the hoses you are using or recommended to use have specific shape at the banjo end that only allows the hose to fit one way....is this correct?...... and this is how they fit as per the 1979 Cadillac?........I'd be seeing if some other banjo hose can fit or if the locating edges on the caliper can be removed to allow a rear pointing banjo fitting and hose...................hope I'm not confusing all this.........lol........Andy Douglas.       

[Don Coatney]

My Plydo disc kit after 30-40 thousand miles.

[3046moparcoupe]

AndyDodge and DonC : thank you both - your input is always helpful & good...helps a lot on this end...:)  Don - I found the 2 pics in your photobucket , under brakes, where you show the inside of the disc the suspension and a great shot of the house route,.....best as I can tell, it looks to be an exact match for how I have my hose routed ( after Mark at Scarebird suggested I rotate the hose orientation down 90 degrees ) .  Definitely makes me feel better about it all.

Very helpful, thank you both.

Steve 

[dale]

You have to tighten the hose banjo fitting quite tight to crush the washer enough to stop the fluid from leaking.  I had to go back and re-tighten mine.