Automatic Flatty

[55 Fargo]

These HP Losses were put out by Car Craft Magazine some time ago. These are supplosedly in stock form, many variables could and would influence the HP losses.

Now the M5/6, with fluid drive, what is the HP loss with these transmissions?

 

These numbers are from an article in Car Craft Magazine.

Powerglide_____18 hp
TH-350________36 hp
TH-400________44 hp
Ford_C-6______55-60 hp
Ford_C-4______28 hp
Ford_FMX______25 hp
Chrysler_A904__25 hp
Chrysler_727___45 hp

 

A basic close to 100 hp with 200 ft lbs of torque needs all the help it can get. Yes some engines are more than 100 hp, but even a 265 with 1 bbl, is 120 hp or so stock..

Edited December 27, 2015 by Fargos-Go-Far

[James_Douglas]

These HP Losses were put out by Car Craft Magazine some time ago. These are supplosedly in stock form, many variables could and would influence the HP losses.

Now the M5/6, with fluid drive, what is the HP loss with these transmissions?

 

These numbers are from an article in Car Craft Magazine.

Powerglide_____18 hp

TH-350________36 hp

TH-400________44 hp

Ford_C-6______55-60 hp

Ford_C-4______28 hp

Ford_FMX______25 hp

Chrysler_A904__25 hp

Chrysler_727___45 hp

 

A basic close to 100 hp with 200 ft lbs of torque needs all the help it can get. Yes some engines are more than 100 hp, but even a 265 with 1 bbl, is 120 hp or so stock..

There are way to many variables for such a list to have any real world meaning. 

 

1. At what RPM was the loss noted? Was the loss lineal or not?

2. What does the torque/HP loss curves like?

 

And on and on...

 

At the end of the day, the heavier the guts of the trans the more HP loss there will be. I raced with a buddy in high school a '60 Chevy that had a power glide. That trans weighed nothing. The guts were light.  That is why so many drag racers use them today.

 

Like I said, I have had all the parts of an M5/M6 on my bench and all the parts of a 727.  In my un-scientific opinion, and it is just an opinion, the M5/M6 weighs in at the same or more than a 727. 

 

In my case, I am looking for a transmission that can stand up to a 5000 pound car.  I also want the rear pump to compression stop the car.  I could use a 904 from 1962 to 1964.  In the end, I suspect that the torque multiplication of using a converter will help more for basic street acceleration than any power robbed by a switch to a 727 transmission.  Also, if one uses a light weight converter and a light weight clutch pack, that would shave the losses a lot. 

 

One could also get a light weight driveshaft and that would help as well.

 

James.

[wayfarer]

...a couple of random thoughts...

 

I will have to see if a torque converter will fit under that bell housing and come up with a flex plate and crankshaft adaptor.  I want the starter to be the original 6 volt and stay in the exact same place.

 

The stock 6-volt starter attaches to the oem bell in a specific location relative to the crank centerline. This is exactly what is required for a 146 tooth flywheel/converter. Now, change to a different tooth count and the diameter changes. The Mopar 143 tooth is 14.0" nominal diameter compared to the 146 at 14.6" so the starter has to move to maintain proper engagement. Not so bad to make a small 0.030" adjustment.

The next issue is that the 62-64 TF converter has a 130 tooth count converter. Now what?

Here is a photo of the difference although the larger wheel is actually a late model 143 not a 146........

 

Yes, there were some 143 tooth converters used with the 426 Hemi engine during the 60's but

not sure that it was '64, which would be the only overlap.

 

Granted, if you throw enough money at the project you can make anything fit/work so modifying a 130 tooth converter

to mount a 146 t ring gear should be a walk in the park.

 

For my own curiosity, what make the stock bell/starter so inviolate?

You should be able to attach new rear mounts to an appropriate adapter plate or the rear of the block and/or trans bolts and sure would seem to be less costly than 40 hours of machine time to sort out the bellhousing cutting-chopping scenario.

 

Just curious.

[James_Douglas]

...a couple of random thoughts...

 

I will have to see if a torque converter will fit under that bell housing and come up with a flex plate and crankshaft adaptor.  I want the starter to be the original 6 volt and stay in the exact same place.

 

The stock 6-volt starter attaches to the oem bell in a specific location relative to the crank centerline. This is exactly what is required for a 146 tooth flywheel/converter. Now, change to a different tooth count and the diameter changes. The Mopar 143 tooth is 14.0" nominal diameter compared to the 146 at 14.6" so the starter has to move to maintain proper engagement. Not so bad to make a small 0.030" adjustment.

The next issue is that the 62-64 TF converter has a 130 tooth count converter. Now what?

Here is a photo of the difference although the larger wheel is actually a late model 143 not a 146........

 

Yes, there were some 143 tooth converters used with the 426 Hemi engine during the 60's but

not sure that it was '64, which would be the only overlap.

 

Granted, if you throw enough money at the project you can make anything fit/work so modifying a 130 tooth converter

to mount a 146 t ring gear should be a walk in the park.

 

For my own curiosity, what make the stock bell/starter so inviolate?

You should be able to attach new rear mounts to an appropriate adapter plate or the rear of the block and/or trans bolts and sure would seem to be less costly than 40 hours of machine time to sort out the bellhousing cutting-chopping scenario.

 

Just curious.

 

Read up on crankshaft thrust line and vibration.  I want the mounts to be in the exact sport as they are now.  As to the starter ring.  I plan on using a custom flex plate and the ring gear will go onto that same size and same spot. The converter will mount to the flex plate. ****

 

****

I did have an interesting conversion a couple of months back with a man who runs a custom converter shop in Northern California.  I asked him if he could take the front of a Fluid Coupling with the threaded studs for the crankshaft nuts and the ring gear and mate it with the "rear half" of a converter shell.  His response was he did not see why not. The fluid coupling housing is thicker than a converters so welding it would be no issue.  But, he warned that the thrust line from the crankshaft to the centerline of the converter to the centerline of the front pump of the trans had to be dead near perfect so the pump did not suffer if not using a flex plate.

****

 

Yes it is going to take some work.  But, I know what it is in the end I want to end up with. 

 

James.

[wayfarer]

...seems to me that 'crankshaft thrust line and vibration' is a topic better suited to conversation about aircraft than automobiles.

If you have written a white paper on the subject I'd happily read it or, just a link that is germane to automobiles would be interesting.

[James_Douglas]

...seems to me that 'crankshaft thrust line and vibration' is a topic better suited to conversation about aircraft than automobiles.

If you have written a white paper on the subject I'd happily read it or, just a link that is germane to automobiles would be interesting.

I don't know if I can find an electronic copy of it...or even the old paper one.

 

The original patent for the MOPAR floating power goes into it in great detail.  I had an old, like 20 years or more ago, article on it in an old car journal. Basically, the "Floating Power" thrust line bit goes to engine vibration that transmits to the chassis and the body.

 

James

[dale]

I know a 318 V-8 will boltup perfectly to a 1946 thru 1948 Plymouth std. trns. after taking off the adapter plate they used to fit the 318 to its automatic trns. so Im wondering if a torque-flite will bolt right up to the six cylinder using the adapter plate that comes with the torque-flite.

[wayfarer]

I know a 318 V-8 will boltup perfectly to a 1946 thru 1948 Plymouth std. trns. after taking off the adapter plate they used to fit the 318 to its automatic trns. so Im wondering if a torque-flite will bolt right up to the six cylinder using the adapter plate that comes with the torque-flite.

...quick answer is no.... Take a look at the photos I have on my website and you'll quickly see the differences in the block's bolt patterns.