Disc brake, dropped uprights, and new master cylinder install. Tech Artical

[tankwilson]

Hey guys I have a 49 plymouth chopped and dropped. Time to upgrade the brakes. Here's what i am going to install

Rusty Hope Disc brake kit

ECI Dual Master cylinder kit

Fatman dropped uprights

Here is all my parts painted and layed out. I don't have the master cylinder bracket in the pic but will show later.

Here is what my car looks like once i took off the wheel. I decided that i am going to replace all the brake lines too so i cut the steel brake line and took the bolts out of the upper and lower A arms so i could disassemble the rest of the brakes and upright on the workbench.

I unbolted the three bolts that hold on the backing plate and removed the entire brake shoe assembly as one.

This pic gives you an idea of of how much the fatman kit will lower the front end.

This is all i have for now will be posting updates as i get more done. Feel free to ask any questions you have.

Thanks

matt

Edited November 11, 2009 by tankwilson

[slicknapier]

Nice! Good luck keep us posted.

[Normspeed]

Quite a drop with those new spindles. Been some members looking for drums lately. You might recoup some of your money selling the old backing plates and drums.

Does the airbag system use a 12 volt compressor?

[tankwilson]

Quite a drop with those new spindles. Been some members looking for drums lately. You might recoup some of your money selling the old backing plates and drums.

Does the airbag system use a 12 volt compressor?

Yes the bags run on 12V. I rewired the car last year to 12V. Yea I will have a complete working drum setup for the front. I have posted it in a previous post and also the classifieds and no response. I also have extra shoes too.

Anyone need near new stock brake parts. Will have drums, shoes, backing plates, wheel cylinders and a master cylinder?

Edited November 11, 2009 by tankwilson

[Cpt.Fred]

first of all, great article!

thanks for sharing and i'm looking forward on the progress!

also,i am interested in the brake parts!

do you know if they fit a 40? they are dual simplex, mine are duplex systems,

but the mountings look about the same...

i'd also need to know what you'd charge for it, including shipping to germany.

we can do the rest by pm.

[james curl]

I believe the 40 Plymouth used four bolts to hold the backing plate on the spindle and the 46 and later used only three bolts. Charlie has two different kits, I believe one fits the trucks and pre 46 cars and the other fits 46 through 54 plymouth cars.

[Olddaddy]

James, you are correct about the 4 bolt and 3 bolt spindles. The early cars, say pre-46 shared the same spindle with Dodge trucks from about 36-59. The later cars were the same 3 bolt spindle up through about 59 also. If you had a Dodge, Chrysler, or DeSoto car you could install either the Plymouth 3 bolt, or Dodge 4 bolt spindle and use my disc brake kits.

[tankwilson]

Will be busy for the next few weekends so progress might be slow. I got the spindles drilled and tapped tonight. Had a few questions on the kit after i got it and Charlie was very quick to help. Thanks man.

I will have to fab up a new front shock setup so will be working on that when i get back to it. Will keep ya posted.

[Olddaddy]

I have the upper shock mount arms also if you need a pair.

[tankwilson]

Well gonna be gone this weekend but did get a chance to do some mock up on the brakes. I installed the upper A arm, dropped upright and spindle with the disc brake bracket from Charlie and the stock steering arm.

1st problem. Take a look at the pic. I think i know now why Fatman says that these uprights reqire a disc brake kit. The two bottom bolts that Charlies sends with his kit hit the upright when turning the spindle thus preventing the car from turning. Now this isn't Charlies fault. The thinkness of the bolt heads along with the plate, sets the bolts out far enough to hit before the wheel will turn that much. Make sense:confused:

My solution. I was probably going to have some major issues with my steering arms anyway because of the air bags. The tie rods hit the frame now when the bags are down.... who knows what they will be like once the dropped uprights are installed. I think i am going take some 1" solid round bar and make new steering arms and weld them to the bottom of the plate i got from Charlie. Thus eliminating the thickness of the stock steering arms.

This is a pic from the front of the car doing the right wheel or passenager side. (from left to right. spindle, charlies plate, steering arm)

I am open to suggestion if you guys have a better way. I would hate to have to scrap charlies kit and start over. I think making new arms will work.

Edited November 14, 2009 by tankwilson

[tankwilson]

Or i may do this like in the Rod n Custom tech artical.

What you guys think???

[PatS....]

I can't quite figure out what's not right with yours compared to the R&C article. Both kits are very similar. I also borrowed a pic of Don Coatney's kit installed on a "steering Knuckle" for comparison. (thanks for the documentaion, Don!)

The grease nipple on Don's is pointing to the long part of the steering arm and yours isn't. I don't think Don had to recess the bolts on his installation.

I keep thinking that the spindle or the plate from the kit may be on the wrong side??

Edited November 14, 2009 by PatS....

[james curl]

I have a set of fat man dropped uprights and the arms will need to be modified and countersunk Allen bolts installed. If not the bolt heads will hit the upright when the spindle is turned, without modifing the spindle will only turn about 10-12 degrees. With the countersund bolts but not modifing the boss on the arm still limits the degrees of travel before hitting the upright. Fatman knows that it needs to be modified, he states the rear boss cannot be more than 1" thick and still get travel as required. This still requires the countersunk bolt. You still have to switch the right anm to the left side and the left arm to the right side then heat and bend them down. If you heat them too close to the bolts then when you bend them down the arm will hit the boss on the end of the lower "A" arm and still limit travel.

Edited November 15, 2009 by james curl

[james curl]

Pat when the uprights are stock the two lower bolts are below the lower "A" arm and therefore do not contact anything when the spindle is moved through its travel in both directions. The dropped upright moves the spindle up to where the bolt heads will contact the upright long before the specified travel is achieved in both directions. It also moves the steering arm up above the trunion point boss on the lower "A" arm.

[Olddaddy]

Matt, I've done it a couple of ways myself. I have countersunk the steering arms and used flathead screws. I have also cut the arms down and countersunk them to get the clearance needed. I did consider welding the arms onto the caliper brackets, which would work, but the countersinking worked as well. It's tight in and around the front suspension. That is why I prefer to lower using a cut coil, or shorter coil spring, 15" rims with lower profile tires etc.

[tankwilson]

Thanks guys. Hey i forgot to mention. I bought my fatman kit from a fellow mopar guy but didn't get the instructions. Anyone got some they can scan or copy and send me.

Also is the right steering arm low enough for the tie rod to clear the frame. If so couldn't i use 2 right steering arms instead of heating and bending the left one?

Thanks

matt

Where do i get a coutersink bit to drill out my steering arms???

[james curl]

The counter sink is done with a machinest countersink which has an 82 degree angle. Go on line to the Rod and Custom archives and do a search for the article on installing Fatman Spindles on a Plymouth Station wagon, thats where I found my information. Like you I also bought mine from a fellow member with no instructions, but somewhere I do have the copy of Rod and Custom as I subsctibe to them. It was easier to go on line tham to look through all of my magizines for that issue.

[Andydodge]

Dunno if its me but the pic by tankwilson showing just the arms and the countersunk holes makes me think the wrong side of the arms have had the holes countersunk, plus the wrong side of those arms have had the raised bosses cut/machined down/off.....those arms are handed, ie they have a flat side that allows them to sit hard against the backing plates and have a different thickness for each bolt.............my 2 cents Oz worth.........andyd

[Andydodge]

Tank........are you sure that you have the correct stub axle on the correct side?........am not being a smartarse here, just curious whether the stubs are correct as the upper bolt hole should project towards the front and your pic shows it facing the same way as the steering arm.......andyd

[james curl]

Tank, the Rod and Custom web address is http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/135_1951_plymouth_suburan_wagon/index.html I hope this helps. You will have to open each pictures to get the information you want.

[james curl]

Tank, the article is on page 9 in the tech articles, about have way down the page, the address that I gave you says the pictures are no longer available. You will be on their site and you will see tech across the page with some other stuff, just click on tech to get into their articles, at the bottom of the page you will see pages 1 through 5 with>>after five, click on >> to go to six through 10. Open page nine and scroll down to the Lo-Par article.

Edited November 16, 2009 by james curl
correct spelling

[tankwilson]

Not sure about the backwards thing. I am only doing the right side right now. Left the left side intact and on the car just so i don't get anything backwards. Not sure about Don's pic. Charlies instructions say that the caliper plate should be pointing towards the rear of the car when installed. Shouldn't that make the plate and the steering arm facing the same direction?????

Edited November 16, 2009 by tankwilson

[moose]

I didn't take any before pictures, but here's my '55 after oldaddy's kit. The top bolt is on the front. Did I put the spindles on the wrong sides? If I did, it hasn't seemed to affect the driving or stability of the car. I used the old brakes on different spindles for my Model A, and I put them on the same way. Is this right? or is the picture from PatS the way it's supposed top be?

First picture is drivers side of my '55.

second and third are both sides of my A.

Fourth from PatS.

[Andydodge]

Moose, all I know is that the top bolt boss on the stub axle should face the front of the car, yours are, the pic from PatS or whoever show it facing the rear...........I have adapted a few discs onto these stub axles over the yrs, have been running discs on my car since 1975/6......so have a rough idea.........this problem as shown has arisen due to the dropped spindles, which have made everything else difficult to fit but should not have changed the basic geometry of the front end nor how the original mopar bits work, if not fit.....andyd

[tankwilson]

Think i will wait and worry about the steering arms when i get everything else wrapped up. Did a quick mockup just to make sure everything fits. Here she is. Yea that should be low enough..