Chrysler shuts down! O/T

[Captain Neon]

I think if the taxpayers bail them out they should shut down plants in Mexico and canada and bring those jobs back to USA

Being a mere college-educated idiot, this is the smartest thing I've seen posted so far.

BTW, I am opposed to all government subsidies and bailouts so I do not think Chrysler, Ford, or GM should get a bailout. However, if our socialist government must intervene then this is a reasonable expectation. Probably the last thing any one in Congress will even consider, though.

For those that have told me that Atlas Shrugged doesn't jive with reality, and every one else, no better time than now to get oneself a copy and give it another read. In fact, if any one can't get a copy, I'll be happy to have one sent to you on my own nickel if you give me a snail mail address.

['37 P4 Touring]

Not to worry. Bush gave them 17.4 Billion today and next month Obama will kick in whatever else is needed. Congress voted themselves a nice raise today too.

Automakers will have it good for a while, no need to compete, does not matter if we bought their cars or not, they still got our money.

What a crock.

[B-Watson]

I think I read that right on the first insert. Chrysler is private ownership meaning no public traded stock. So are we now going to use our tax dollars to support a private company? GM and Ford are owned by shareholders meaning we can buy stock if we want. Chrysler is owned by an individual who has said he doesn't intend to loan his own company any of his own money to keep it afloat. Why should we line his pockets at the expense of us all?

My 2 cents

I work at a paper mill and we are now shutting down a week without pay so they can show the industry they can control the cost of paper. Wow that really helps me doesn't it. Week off at Christmas no pay just so some idiot in control can flex his muscles. What happens when they want to restart and all the lines are frozen because they never took the time to do maint. on them before they shut it all down. Real Smart isn't it.

And how much are the stockholders of GM and Ford being asked to ante up? Exactly the same amount as the stockholders of Chrysler - nothing.

All three are stock-issuing companies. It's just that one has two stockholders and the other two have thousands.

And Chrysler is not owned by an individual. 18.9% of the stock is owned by Daimler AG and the other 80.1% by Cerberus Investments - another company, American in this case. No single human being owns all Chrysler stockholders. Thus "individual" is an executive with Cerberus, just as the gentlement of GM and Ford meeting in Washington are executives of their firms.

Bill

Vancouver, BC

[B-Watson]

I think if the taxpayers bail them out they should shut down plants in Mexico and canada and bring those jobs back to USA

I hope if the Big Three decide this is the road to follow, they let us Canadians and Mexicans know now. That way our governments can tell Chrysler, GM and Ford to take a hike and we can keep the billions of U.S. dollars they are demanding Ottawa, Toronto, and Mexico City fork out to keep their Canadian and Mexican subsidiaries afloat.

If they don't want to build cars in our countries, they should not get any of our money.

And yes, the Big Three are not only in Washington begging for cash, but also in Ottawa (capital of Canada), Toronto (capital of the Province of Ontario, where the Big Three have all their Canadian assembly plants) and Mexico City.

Bill

Vancouver, BC

[Don Coatney]

Here's a tidbit from Forbes thats going around the e-mail circuit...

The problem it is not only the high wages paid to union employees. Job classifications and poor management decisions do disrupt productivity.

While the maintenance crew are sitting in the shop playing euchre a call comes in that a production line will not run. The mechanical guy finishes the game then gets up to go check out the problem. He does not take any tools with him. He arrives at the line and pushes the start button. Sure enough the line will not run. He believes the problem is electrical not mechanical so he returns to the shop and tells the electrician who is eating lunch that the line has an electrical problem. The electrician finishes his lunch and walks out to the line without his tools. He pushes the start button and the line does not start. So he walks back to the shop and gets his tools so he can check the power supply. Upon returning to the line he finds that a safety guard on the machine blocks the electrical supply panel and it will require a mechanical tradesman to remove it. So he walks back to the shop and tells the mechanical tradesman (who is eating lunch) that his assistance is required. The mechanical tradesman finishes his lunch and heads to the line. He determines what tools are required and returns to the shop to get them. He then returns to the line and removes the guard. Once removed he returns to the shop to tell the electrician the guard has been removed. The electrician stops by the bathroom (he had bean soup and tacos for lunch) and then goes to check the breaker panel. He does not find a tripped breaker so he goes back to the shop to tell the mechanical guy he can replace the guard. The line has now been down for two + hours so escalation procedures are started and the maintenance supervisor is summoned to the line. He arrives and pushes the start button and the line does not start. He then walks the line looking for problems. He finds the emergency stop button engaged at the discharge end of the line. He resets the emergency stop circuit and returns to the start button, pushes it, and the line starts up. The maintenance supervisor then alerts the production supervisor that the line is ready to run. The fifty people who work on this line have been standing around doing nothing waiting for production to begin for well over two hours. The production supervisor arrives at the line and informs the maintenance supervisor that he is sending his people to lunch before the line starts production. The maintenance supervisor return to his office, the maintenance crew resumes there euchre game, the production crew goes to lunch, and the company just lost one hundred thousand dollars due to lost productivity.

[Dennis Hemingway]

Not to worry. Bush gave them 17.4 Billion today and next month Obama will kick in whatever else is needed. Congress voted themselves a nice raise today too.

Automakers will have it good for a while' date=' no need to compete, does not matter if we bought their cars or not, they still got our money.

What a crock.[/quote']

I think this is a Crock, as Dodge is getting the bail out money they inturn state that they will still back the Dodge NASCAR Teams.

I like NASCAR racing but why should tax payer money be used to keep the teams racing?

Dennis:eek:

[Don Coatney]

I think this is a Crock, as Dodge is getting the bail out money they inturn state that they will still back the Dodge NASCAR Teams.

I like NASCAR racing but why should tax payer money be used to keep the teams racing?

Dennis:eek:

I agree with you Dennis. Nascar is not necessary to maintain profits in automobile manufacturing. Bad decision by Dodge management.

[Captain Neon]

The problem it is not only the high wages paid to union employees. Job classifications and poor management decisions do disrupt productivity.

While the maintenance crew are sitting in the shop playing euchre a call comes in that a production line will not run. The mechanical guy finishes the game then gets up to go check out the problem. He does not take any tools with him. He arrives at the line and pushes the start button. Sure enough the line will not run. He believes the problem is electrical not mechanical so he returns to the shop and tells the electrician who is eating lunch that the line has an electrical problem. The electrician finishes his lunch and walks out to the line without his tools. He pushes the start button and the line does not start. So he walks back to the shop and gets his tools so he can check the power supply. Upon returning to the line he finds that a safety guard on the machine blocks the electrical supply panel and it will require a mechanical tradesman to remove it. So he walks back to the shop and tells the mechanical tradesman (who is eating lunch) that his assistance is required. The mechanical tradesman finishes his lunch and heads to the line. He determines what tools are required and returns to the shop to get them. He then returns to the line and removes the guard. Once removed he returns to the shop to tell the electrician the guard has been removed. The electrician stops by the bathroom (he had bean soup and tacos for lunch) and then goes to check the breaker panel. He does not find a tripped breaker so he goes back to the shop to tell the mechanical guy he can replace the guard. The line has now been down for two + hours so escalation procedures are started and the maintenance supervisor is summoned to the line. He arrives and pushes the start button and the line does not start. He then walks the line looking for problems. He finds the emergency stop button engaged at the discharge end of the line. He resets the emergency stop circuit and returns to the start button, pushes it, and the line starts up. The maintenance supervisor then alerts the production supervisor that the line is ready to run. The fifty people who work on this line have been standing around doing nothing waiting for production to begin for well over two hours. The production supervisor arrives at the line and informs the maintenance supervisor that he is sending his people to lunch before the line starts production. The maintenance supervisor return to his office, the maintenance crew resumes there euchre game, the production crew goes to lunch, and the company just lost one hundred thousand dollars due to lost productivity.

How TRUE!!! This is the same thing that happens in the food manufacturing industry, but then the QA guy is getting yelled at by everyone because some how it is QA's fault that the line was down for over 2 hours.

[Don Coatney]

How TRUE!!! This is the same thing that happens in the food manufacturing industry, but then the QA guy is getting yelled at by everyone because some how it is QA's fault that the line was down for over 2 hours.

Where do you think I got my information to write this having worked in maintenance management for the food industry for 30 years.

[Captain Neon]

I knew there was a reason it all seemed so familiar.

[Allan Faust]

Well, I guess I can get involved in this conversation as well.... seems that I'm officially out of one job...... and you can see my comments in the commentary section;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081218.wdomtar

1218/BNStory/Business/

btw.... I still have my job in Ottawa... its just that officially my other job finally closed after 3.x years in lockout..... As for comments, people were dissin the union... and in this case I can say that the union had its faults, but was doing everything in their power to keep the mill open. The company however was doing everything to get us out on strike.... and taking pay raises in the meantime.....

Allan

[Norm's Coupe]

The problem it is not only the high wages paid to union employees. Job classifications and poor management decisions do disrupt productivity.

This post is a little long. But, it does show what Don is talking about, and it is a little funny too.

Now I can relate to the job classification statement. The rest of your post sounds like something that happened to me a few times. However, about the best story concerning this was back in the summer of 1968.

I had sold 2 55 gallon drums of roof coating to a large corn products company in Hammond, IN as a test for them. We also supplied roof spray equipment to apply the material to the roof. Keep in mind during this story that you can set up the spray equipment in 30 minutes or less with just two men, while you're sleeping. Also, keep in mind that this equipment will spray heavy thick roof coating at the rate of about 35 minutes per drum. The only way to keep it from spraying that fast is to turn the spray gun off. Cleaning and repacking the equipment afterward normally only took about an hour.

How long did it take these people?

We started at about 7 AM. Besides myself were the Maintenance Supervisor, Maintenance Foreman, and two "Painters" (job classification for applying roof coating too). Normally, I would help in physically setting up the equipment. But........the MS said I couldn't do that because the union would file a complaint. So, I could do nothing but instruct, even though the equipment belonged to my company and was only on loan to spray the coating. In addition, the MS and MF could do nothing but instruct also according to the union contract.

The two painters did place the pump into the first drum of material. However, now there were 4 50 foot sections of material and air hose to connect together. Well..........that requires a "Pipe Fitter" (job classification) to connect each of the couplings. So........the MS had to call the "Pipe Fitters" foreman to get a pipe fitter sent to the building we were at. (this was a large complex of buildings). That took quite awhile to get the pipe fitter to us. We had already taken the pole spray gun onto the roof for him. The pipe fitter connected the eight hoses together, then to the pump. The painters then hoisted the end to the roof with ropes. Of course, they could not then connect the spray gun to the hose. Need that pipe fitter again, who was still there. But..........as a pipe fitter he said it wasn't in his job classification to go onto the roof, and refused to do so. Back the the Piper Fitter Foreman again. He verified that it wasn't in any of the guys contract for a pipe fitter to go onto the roof. But, as foreman when that happens he can then do it his self. So........we had to wait awhile for him to finish whatever he was doing to come hook up the gun to the hose. Now, we're all set right? Wrong!! We turned on the compressor inside that building and the fuse blew. Well.............not just anyone could not screw a new one into the box. We now needed an electrician to do that. (by now it's also break time, so no one does anything). Afterward, we get an electrician over just before lunch or afterward (don't remember now) to do that. Finally, hoses connected, we have power to the compressor and ready to go. Wrong again. By now, the roof is again covered with a good layer of corn husk dust. So........told the painters they would have to sweep the roof again. Also, told them that it was probably a good idea to sweep it from time to time while spraying since the dust built up so fast. Well.........that's not their classification. Now, we need a General Labor (classification) to sweep the roof. Of course, this took awhile again to get one of those people over that was willing to go on the roof. And, of course, there was that afternoon break in there somewhere. Finally about 3 PM the General Labor person gets there. Painters look at their watch and says, it's time to clean up to get ready to punch out at 3:30 PM. So..........now you get the picture. Not one drop of roof coating was applied that day. So..........that meant I had to cancel my appointments for the next day and return to make sure everything worked right, as we didn't even get to turn on the pump. A whole day wasted for about a 2 to 4 hour job.

The next morning didn't start off too well either. Got there at 7 AM again. Took about 20 or 30 minutes to actually start spraying the roof coating onto the roof. They started off real nice on one end of the building. Then someone from the ground yelled something to one of the painters from the plant roadway on the ground. (that roadway went to the main office of the plant). Before I had a chance to tell the painter to turn off the gun before going to the edge (I was also on the roof), he was already there with the coating coming out in full force yelling back at the guy on the ground. Well..........he held the tip of the gun over the edge of the roof on an angle, spraying the coating right into the car window of some woman from the office coming to work. So, she got a lap full and of course the car got some too. What a mess. And...........of course, now we have to waste more time for a dumb mistake the painter made. Common sense would tell you not to hold that spay gun over the edge with material coming out of it. But.......I regress........that wasn't present evidently. However, we did get those two drums sprayed. Took all day again due to all their breaks, etc in addition to the mistake. They finished up the two drums just in time for their 3 PM clean up to go home at 3:30 PM. They left the pump clean up for the 3rd days job, which I did not go back for.

I've had other problems similar to this one over the years. However, this was about the worse case of union job classifications I've ever run into at any plant. Guess it was all worth the effort though. For many years thereafter, this place turned out to be one of my largest annual customers, in spite of all the trouble that first and second day.

So..........as mentioned, they have to loosen up on those union classifications. That would save a lot of time and money.

[Frank Elder]

The union doesn't care about saving the company money, just making the hourly wage they were promised. It all pay's the same whether it is efficent or not, even leads to overtime on occasion.

[Dennis Hemingway]

Canada also gave them bail out money.

Dennis:mad:

From: http://www.jayski.com/cupnews.htm

Canada adds bailout money to GM & Chrysler: General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC will get $4 billion Canadian ($3.3 billion U.S. dollars) in government loans from Canada and the province of Ontario. General Motors' Canadian unit will receive C$3 billion while Chrysler is set to get C$1 billion. Borrowers must accept limits on executive compensation and also report "material transactions in excess of C$125 million or more," the U.S. and Canadian governments said in a joint statement. Canada's aid builds on the $13.4 billion in U.S. emergency loans announced by President George W. Bush. Canadian Industry Minister Tony Clement on Dec. 12 pledged to offer GM, Chrysler and Ford Motor Co.'s Canadian units federal and provincial aid "proportional" to the their contribution to North American production, which is about 20 percent.(Bloomberg News)(12-21-2008)

[Frank Elder]

How bad will the fallout be for Canada if they go under, it has to be a s#%t-pot full of jobs and disposable income just going away. Not that Canada isn't self-substainable in it's own right.

[B-Watson]

In addition to putting limits on executive compensation and reporting any transactions exceeding $125-million -

"Ottawa and Ontario will also become shareholders of GM and Chrysler. They are to receive warrants for non-voting, common shares in the companies, equal to their 20-per-cent share of the U.S. bailout package."

"(Ford Motor Co. of Canada Ltd. is in better financial shape than its Detroit rivals and is seeking a $2-billion line of credit.)"

(OMAR EL AKKAD AND KAREN HOWLETT, From Monday's Globe and Mail)

And now the head of the CAW (Canadian Auto Workers Union), Ken Lewenza, is admitting they may need to cut back on workers' wages and benefits.

If the Big Three do close down in Canada, it will have a major impact on the Canadian economy. Not just in Ontario where the assembly plants are located, but all across the country as suppliers are not based just in Ontario. As with all plant closures, there will be ripple effects as each area gets hit with layoffs and plant closings .

And if the Big Three go under, all the dealers and the companies that rely on them for survival will get hit with thousands more looking for employment.

Not to mention the hit on the oil industry. Many overlook the fact that all these plants and buildings are heated with petroleum products or natural gas. The vehicles used to ship supplies to the plants and the final products to their new owners burn up millions of gallons of fuel a year. And all those fuel sales will be gone resulting in lower lower royalties and income for the oil producing provinces such as Alberta. And the jobs related to the industry.

The auto industry plays a major role in the economic health of both the U.S. and Canada. Like it or not, to lose the Big Three would plunge all of North America into a depression.

Bill

Vancouver, BC