James_Douglas

Hi, After some digging, I found out that the Master parts Book for my Desoto as well as the Desoto Factory Service manual have a misprint. The Master parts book lists a 5/8-18TPIx.75 inch long bolt. The Service manual lists the torque spec as 30-35 pounds. I just took the torque spec at face value and did not realize that the ACTUAL bolts used to clamp the Pressure plate to the mini-flywheel on the fluid coupling is a 5/16-18TPI bolt. So, at 30 to 35 pounds for a 5/8 bolt vs 18-23 pounds for a 5/16 bolt it is no wonder that the bolt snapped. I don't know if the Dodge or Chrysler books are also wrong, so you folks with fluid drive be advised. I am going to a hardware store and get 5 new grade 8 bolts and replace them all and torque them with dry at 21 pounds. Best, James

Shel, Are you saying it uses the top and bottom set or the top and middle set ? On mine it lines up with the top set, does not line up with the 2nd set fro the top, and lines up with the set in the lower bell housing. James

Ed, If it only uses 4 then maybe I am not F*uc*ed. The fluid drive uses 6. I could pull the thing out and drill and tap the extra holes. My issue is, should I do it as it would require taking the trans back out. Without the floor pan out it is hell getting the thing in. I guess I need to sleep on it.... James

I just talked to George. He said, Oh yes, thats correct. Just use 4 bolts. Hummmm.... Anyone out there with the 3-speed or 3-speed with OD, how many bolts is holding your transmission to the bell housing ? Best, James PS, This is going from tip-toe shift (M-5) to 3-speed with od. Keeping the fluid coupling.

Thank you George Asche, Well folks, I just tried to bolt up my nice new transmission. The middle bolt flanges on the transmission are not even close to matching the holes in the bell housing. The uppers are fine and the lowers I think will fit, although I have the lower housing off to make sure that the input spline is getting past the disk ok. Someone, anyone, tell me that the 3-speed only used 4 bolts...I doubt it as it has 6 bolt holes... So I have done all this work for nothing, not to mention the $1800 I have spent. This is going to be one interesting phone call in the AM. Best, James

Well Pete, I suggest a change over to an MSD crankshaft triggered ignition. Then you can toss the distributor and not worry about the problem. Hell, it would probably take less effort and cost less in the end than running this problem down.... You would also get that "Racers Edge" when the big race takes place... Best, James

You guys want to know how my day has gone... Just ask about the how when torquing down one of the clutch cover bolts it never took a good torque. The torque reading is supposed to be between 30-35 Pounds. It snapped in two. Grade 8 bolt. Fun fun fun... James

I just spent the most trying 4 hours in a long time on this car. The fluid drive unit has 8 not 4 studs to bolt it to the crankshaft. One is offset. Why it is off set who the hell knows as there are no balance marks with a fluid coupling. The book tells you that you can get the coupling in and out by taking the lower bell housing off. This is correct. However, try putting it back in. That is when you are replacing the coupling with a new one. You see, after 4 hours on my back trying to bench press 75 pounds I learned that the off set stud in NOT in the same place relative to the filling hole. So after repeated tries to get the thing in, I finally summoned enough strength to hold the thing in place while turning it until I hit the correct alignment. My ares are still shaking as I write this. Never again! Either take the floor pan out and block up the engine and remove the entire bell housing or have a shop do it... Now time to rest and then head back down and get the clutch and trans in... James

Hey, If you guys want to get a batch of disks and pressure plates together, I would take them in to him and get them all done in a batch... James

Ok, So it is the pump alignment. This is how to test it, if it will fit through... 1. Take out the pump. 1. Mic the hole for the pump. 3. Mic the hole for the distributor. 4. Have a VERY good lathe operator make you a set of bronze bushings for each hole. 5. Have him drill a hole in the center of each bushing to the dia. of the distributor shaft. 6. Take a steel rod and run it through the 2 holes. If it lines up then the block is ok. If not then you can figure out how much and in what direction it is off by pulling the distributor side bushing and using inside gauges to see which way it is off. Then you can have a shim made (tapered) for the pump to block surface. I know this is a lot, but it will lead to a solution to the oil pump issue. A pain for sure. Best, James

Sometimes in your own back yard... I looked in the local yellow pages and found a clutch place in the hart of San Francisco. Off one of the little allies just south of Market street. I walked in the door and it was like walking back in time 30 years or more. Every kind of equipment you can imagine to do clutch work and brake shoes. Although her does not do brake linings anymore. The man that runs it is 75 years old. I spent about 2 hours with him. Along with lots of tech and no-tech conversation we (and I do mean we) rebuilt my clutch disk. Using the rivet machine was fun. He explained the details about what kind of rivets to use and also looked over my NW trans rebuilt pressure plate and just shook his head. He explained that the bolts and nuts used on the Borg & Beck plates were very special. He then proceeded to walk down an pull a big box of originals and pointed out the difference in them from the ones that some shops use in their place. He was concerned that the staking would not hold on the rebuilt one and the levers would get loose. He told me to use the NORS pressure plate I took along not the rebuilt one. He also told me to use as a core the older disk as the one NW trans re-lined had the metal plates between the linings bent far too much for anti-jitter. The clutch disk when done was a work of art. All the rivet heads were parallel to disk and sunk below the relief cuts in the lining. When all was said and done he charged me $42 cash. I am going to take him all my clutch parts for the Desoto and have him do a top notch re-build while he is still working. He has no apprentice and once his knowledge is gone it is gone forever. Back to putting my new transmission in. Best, James

Pete, I know that the following is "out there" but.. Examine the distributor shaft very carefully. With the over bore and longer stroke, it is just possible if the skirt length on your pistons in a little too long that one is rubbing up against the distributor shaft at the bottom of its stoke. I know this is a long shot and it would have to be a minimal contact to not crack the piston. But, just a little touch would cause a vibration. If it is pump alignment related, I just don't see how it would be fine then start up again. A long shot, but one to give some thought to in any event. Best, James

Pat, Thanks. Looks like they used a number of different springs. The imperial site has the 1952 with the big six and shows 2 different sets of springs. The funny thing is they MIX some colors. Both sets end up in the 1500 to 1650 pounds range. Best, James

Very good, thanks very much... Anyone with a Chrysler MPB with the larger engines ? James

Don that 9th addition of Motors shows 17 different colors of springs (Borg & Beck) and their test heights... James

Perfect, just what I wanted. What year book is this from? Also, which flathead six is tied to this particular parts book ? What I am trying to figure out is what spring pressure was used on the fluid drive cars? ...did they up the pressure when the HP went up with the larger displacement... Thanks, James

Hi Guys, I need to know what color spring (color=pounds) is used in the 9.25 inch clutch on fluid drive cars from the early 1950's. The master parts books (MPB)generally tell what color spring. My 1948 MPB tells me that a "Tan" spring is used on the 1948 fluid drive clutch. What I want to know is in the early 1950's when they went to the 251 & 265 cubic inch engines did they up the spring pressure or not. It turns out that the pressure plate that was re-built by NW transmission used a RED spring which according to my 1942 Motors Manual is a 180 pound spring. The 1948 MPB shows Tan which my motors manual shows as 155 pounds. I have a period new pressure plate assembly and it has orange springs which shows up as 165 pounds. So, if anyone has a early 50's parts book and can check that for me I would appreciate it. I am headed to the only clutch shop left here in San Francisco at 8AM to see what I can do about a re-built disk. Thanks all, James

Don, Northwest Transmission Parts is in Winchester, OH. They did the first coupling, clutch disk, and pressure plate. All of that is coming out. The company that cut open my original fluid coupling that came out when I did the engine swap is DACCO near you. The unit looks good, but we will find out after I get it back in this week. Best, James

Pete, Get a cheep electric fuel pump and about 15 feet of fuel line. Drop one end into the gas tank through the filler. Pull the bolts and back out the fuel pump. Stuff some duct tape over the hole for the 10 minute test. Bypass everything on the fuel system and run the engine with electric pump and see if the sound changes. Won't take long and will rule in/out the fuel pump. James

Thanks Don, That is what I thought. Everything I paid Northwest Transmission Parts to do for me has turned out to be junk. The fluid coupling is out of balance and or the inner bearing is shot and now the re-lined clutch disk is showing some rivet heads at 0.010 below the friction deck of the clutch. The clutch is showing almost no wear. Granted, that I did not catch the rivet when installing it. But as I take a very close look at it several of the rivets were installed at a slight angle and are sitting flat in their holes. All toll Over $500 spent with these folks and the quality is bunk. When they shipped my original order back they just forgot to send the throw out bearing. They forgot to ship back the think special nuts to mount the fluid coupling to the crankshaft, and the nut that hold on the pressure plate and seal had not been tightened. All in all not a good job on their part. Best, James

Pete, Try something for me. Start the engine. Put on a big rubber glove. With the engine at idle, take off one plug. Listen to the sound and see if it goes away. If not do the next plug., then the next, and so on. If it is a pin or a rod bearing it will stop or change sound a lot when you kill that cylinder. If after that you still think it is in the pump-distributor area... I still have the pump on the engine I took out last fall. Was running fine. I also have a fresh distributor with a new vacuum advance on it. If you like, I can box them up and send them to you to test as a set. I will sleep on other thoughts. Best, James PS. I am sitting on my hands until Monday and can get a new clutch disk.

Guys, I have the fluid coupling and clutch out as part of the trans & fluid coupling swap. I noted that the clutch disk, which is rebuild from NW trans, on one side has a rivet that was installed at a little bit of an angle. It is 0.010 inch below the top of the lining. My URGENT question is, how much lining above the rivets is there supposed to be on a rebuild clutch disk? If I have to wait until Monday, I will loose several days and wanted to get this done prior to Sondra"s return. Thanks, James

Bob, Thanks very much. Now with part numbers, on with the part hunt! Best, James

Anyone out there with a Plymouth or Dodge parts book that can give me the part numbers for the "T" handle and the little under dash bracket that was used on the overdrive cars? George just sent me my DO unit. Look fine. The "T" handle he sent along is an after market unit and it is a little on the lite side. If I can find an original one and mount it under the left side of my dash that would be great. Thanks, James PS. I am looking for alternative ways to hook up the kick down. I will call Pete over the weekend, but if anyone else has any thoughts, now is the time. I have a SINGLE wire push button on the shift handle now for the fluid drive kick down and I would like to use that for the OD if I can figure out the wiring. Also, George sent along a 3-position toggle switch in his wiring harness and I am clueless about how it is used. Best, James

Don, Who did the spring and how much ? Also, what kind of bushings did you have ? James