Keeping Up with the AoK boys

Well,  the truth is we likely should have had a pile of those bumper stickers made I guess and lol made slightly smaller because they don't fit in a standard mailing envelope.  We do sell them, their $5 each & shipping.  Or

drop by Spring Carlisle or AoK HQ in Fertigs, PA  or my place in Campbellville Ontario.

 

Tim

I have to have one of those for sure. Will PM you.

 

Great thread as well.

 

 

 

Well..  your 5.7 litre hemi depending on its year, has a rev limiter built into the system.  When they 1st came out it was set at 5570,  and I think its  now something like 5800 depending on the application.  You can chip that hemi, void the warranty and catch up with the RPM of the worlds fastest dinosaur.  RPM is a funny thing and it depends what the application is. Top Fuel cars are a classic example where they have actually dialed back the rpm, as they shortened the racing from 1/4 mile and they start to talk about how many times the engine turns over the course of the race. 

 

In terms of the most powerful on the planet, I cant say that because I just don't know. I also know we could actually pull more power out of a flathead and God willing, down the road that may come to be.   We have a special blower intake in prototype form, and we have only started to play with the food (fuel) that feeds the Raptor!   lol

 

In terms of my 1949, I also cant make that claim, although I have definitely not seen a more powerful one out on the street, nor has any of the AoK boys,  although to be honest that was never our goal. It was more to take a flathead, make it streetable, and able to operator on "pump gas".  If I was willing to shift to Octane booster and nitros which I actually have the ability to introduce into the engine, but I was looking for something with a little longer fuse ! 

 

Small block chevy's....    lol..    Lets just say we love being the under dog and love the element of surprise.

 

Your correct on doing more milder builds, although we have made available the cam in my car in both the USA small block and the Canadian big block and while a little lumpy at idle you don't have to go completely wild to use them.  Going from what your mentioning, to get that last bit of performance gets expensive.

 

Just take pistons for example.  Take what a set of overbore pistons cost and they are actually pretty reasonable.  Unfortunately its getting limited to cast pistons instead of forged but still very serviceable.   We wanted big over bore forged pistons and modern rings. That road lead us to Venolia .  Next thing you know we ordered up several sets of big bore (125 thou over the stock 3 7/16" bore). We made them smaller, lighter, with specialty coating, 3 rings and plasma moly rings.    They  were, lol pricy!

 

Now do they outperform 4 ring cast pistons, oh for sure.  Is it worth the cost... lol..   I am sure the AoK boys wives don't think so.  But for the Boys..  why do it... easy, because we can!

 

Had we found forged 125 thou pistons which a decade ago I could easily order, we likely wouldn't have went crazy and to be honest its not a path I would recommend for very many clients and definitely would suggest disclosing the cost to your significant other.  But if you want them..   Here is where to buy them

and were happy to hand over our specs and order information.

 

 http://www.venolia.com/

 

Finally, were looking forward to seeing you as well, and Ill finish off with a new version of something a number of the AoK boys family have attached to vehicles !

 

 

Now that you mention custom pistons; I was wondering if there is any merit to using a high roof open chamber head for good flow through the transition slot and making up the compression with a pop-up piston? A custom piston could also open up the possibility of playing around with long rods in the long stroke engines, but even the shortest flathead rods look plenty long to my eye.

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Scott.

HI Scott - 

 

Remember at this point we are chasing what is the expensive side of increasing performance with a flathead

as custom forged pistons have gotten expensive.

 

But let me try and address your points and answer your questions.   The term "pop up" piston really is

anything that rises above the top of the block deck at top dead center and of course we often raise compression by shaving the head which lowers the space for the pistons to rise up.

 

We have seen and have done the technique of taking 3 9/16" forged Pistons that the Chevy world would

use, and have the pins placed so that they work with a flathead application.  Keep in mind that is 125 thou

over bore, which we have often done, but your at the end of the limits for the flathead and you need a 1948 and newer block.

 

The 1952 and older Canadian big blocks, also have the side of the block carved to handle the 4 3/4" stroke of a 265. That is whether it is a 265 block or a 250 or 238. They are all the same.

 

In the Chevy pistons you need to cut off 90 thou off the top of the piston so it doesn't hit the head.

 

But back to your original question and point, yes raising the roof of the head would be extremely helpful.

 

This isn't a slam at some of the recent aluminum head creations, as I am always super happy to support

any one in the performance flathead mopar world.  However having said that I wished they had changed the chamber of the head, and in one case, put in more water jackets towards the front of the head, like Edmunds did because it tends to heat up a the front.

 

We have carved the roof of some of the 1954 and newer big block truck heads which have a little more meat in them to change the roof.  Numerous guys have done that for relief of the valve, when the head is shaved

to the point the valve hit the head.

 

But we do know what is needed if someone was to create an aluminum or cast head. We have 2 experimental heads which actually raise the roof of the head, they are almost 3/4" thicker and the head is

in fact a hemi or hemispherical chamber.

 

I have also seen and tried to get for years, a 3rd head exactly like the two we have, although the head has 2 plugs per chamber.

 

Back to custom pistons here is a picture of 1 design beside a stock piston

 

 

You are correct in this design and the one we have recently gotten from Venolia   you place the rod pins

at the place you want depending on how far you want the piston to rise and what rods you are using.

 

Remember the 265 is 4 3/4" stroke,  the 250 (some call 251) is 4 1/2" stroke and the 238 is 4 1/4" stroke

all with a stock bore of  3 7/16"   To accomplish the stroke it is just the crank and rods.   The longer the

stroke actually the shorter the stoke.

 

So in the pistons above, the much longer 238 rods were used.

 

Now that is not without challenges.  If you look at 265 rods they bolts are recessed and the rods have factory "carving" so it clears the cam.  The reason you would want to use the longer 250 or 238 rods is a) they are much easier to find  and the longer rods are much more straight up on the power stroke.

 

First thing was the rod pins are place way further up the piston sides. Second more grinding or carving was required on the block side so that there was enough clearance, and a little bit of carving/grinding was

required on the cam side to increase the clearance beyond what it started with of 1 thou (cold).

 

It is a bit of a reversal in thinking I realize but it is definitely cheaper to use longer rods or change the rod pin

placement on pistons than it is, to buy custom rods  to mirror the shorter 265 rods to have block and cam clearance.

 

Believe me I have a custom set of rods and what was supposed to be fairly cost effective turned into

a very very expensive project. The custom piston side   and/or custom pistons with longer 250 or 238 rods

are a more cost effective route to go.

 

A final comment on custom pistons. The pistons I show above, the strategy was smaller, lighter forged pistons to utilize 238 rods.  It is a super idea and definitely has huge gains and advantages over stock.

The rev quicker no question.

 

We have gone the super light route and we have also gone the route of getting Top fuel grade coated forged pistons and plasma moly rings from Venolia . They are definitely heavier than the light weigh versions.

We had blower and fuel beyond gasoline in mind when we went that route.

 

We went a much more radical cam route which didn't need the instant rev.  If we were building a

short track stock car engine, that would have been a different story and the super light weight pistons

would have been the preferred route.

 

In the end, these days, the custom forged pistons route is expensive. at 8-15 x the cost of a stock set of

cast pistons, there are lots of more cost effective ways to pull power and torque from the flathead.

 

Its still in this order,  1) dual exhaust  2) dual or triple carbs to provide better fuel distribution  3) shaved head  4) performance cam   as the most cost effective route to get horsepower for the overwhelming majority.

 

But if you want to chase the limits of the flathead mopar, well that is a different movie!

 

Hope that helps Scott.

 

Tim

Thanks for the reply Tim,

 

The 238 rods should have a much better rod/stroke ratio while allowing a much lighter modern piston with a short skirt. Some of the slant six guys are using 198 long rods with 225 cranks while using off the shelf metric pistons. The 2.2l turbo forgings are popular. It would really be nice to find an off the shelf piston solution that will work with slight modifications. What is the original application of the chevy piston you mentioned?

 

Scott

Hi all, been layin low, lots happening and on the go, but took a drive today, enjoy, hope to contribute more to the 'blogs" and forum, when I feel a little more energized..

 

Jst a FYI update, now this is a rant, I have 4 members on an ignore list, but they are compelled to interfere and/or sabotage my threads, or threads I may participate in.

You IDIOTS know who you are, why don't you go and play on a busy freeway or something, 99% of the time you offer nothing, man you 4 are pests, and you know exactly who you are....

I have very mixed emotions about this post. This forum is a community  of like minded wrench heads. That means each new member should learn the culture and the personalities and then work within those parameters. To venture off in a "rant" tread is to create a sub culture and I do not endorse such. JMHO 

Well I agree, and while this is a little tongue in cheek, it is laced with a good dose of reality.   What your refer to as the forum has become over-run with a subculture that has grown and grown over the years. Its clear that no matter what the topic, whether some have any real experience, or even own, ever own or plan to own certain vehicles they have to weigh in with comments.   There is no greater example than lately in the truck forum.  Unfortunately where it should be a community of like minded wrench heads a few have spoiled that, and I don't know about you, but I know of dozens of users who left the forums never to return.   In those members were some of the truly smarted p15-d24 people going.         So I understand  Rockwood's frustration. I really do, but I also  share Ptaming's mixed emotions,  although perhaps a different mix.

What I can say is on this blog the subculture is a Chrysler, Plymouth, Dodge, Desoto, Fargo or other Mopar products.   I don't allow swearing, so unless your kidding mentioning putting in a Small Block Chevy being a great way to improve a p15-d24 is swearing in my books, and truly verging on stupidity.   

Its a subculture were using Chevy, Ford and parts designed for them like T5 transmissions as viable better solutions to Mopar parts, best be in jest, because its not part of the subculture on this blog.

While I suspect it was out of frustration, I actually thought the recent idea of a forum for the culture of "lets put a v6 or v8 in a p15-d24. or that ultimate, mustang front end, Chevy transmission, ford 9" rear end  and debating a v6 Buick or a 350 chevy crate motor idea can go hang out was a great idea.  I can tell you it would be a forum I would never enter.

Beyond that, I think a subculture exists over in the other forums that you may not realize exists and  over here, if there is a sub culture, its one that I think Walter Chrysler would be happy to see.   Mopar 1st.  Period performance concepts where you can, improving  those concepts where you can or where you need to.   Flathead's Forever!

That's the culture, and if that is seen as a subculture, so be it!  Its not for everyone!

 

 

 

1 hour ago, pflaming said:

I have very mixed emotions about this post. This forum is a community  of like minded wrench heads. That means each new member should learn the culture and the personalities and then work within those parameters. To venture off in a "rant" tread is to create a sub culture and I do not endorse such. JMHO 

Then it's real simple stay off this Blog,   you are not compelled to read it Paul.

Just a FYI I do not view you as any of the 4, I mentioned if that makes any difference to you.

I do not like the 4, I mentioned and they do not like me either, but I am not going to argue and fight with them over any nonsense at the same time.

So Paul, there you have my opinion on this matter, and this is why it.s here and not on the open forum.

As Tim also states there are divisive sub -cultures, and will continue to be. Not sure why that should be too much of a bother to you, as you hang ut a lot with those of my polar opposite....

Edited December 17, 2016 by Rockwood

So on the hunt for another A833 trans, may have scored 1 in Winnipeg. Will know in a day or 2.

This 1 is complete with a nice shifter  and is out of a 84 Dodge truck with a slant 6 cylinder.

Now for my purpose a Chrysler flathead 6 engine, this is a perfect trans, the gear spreads is great, and do not have to deal with a near bull low of a NWC T5, with a gear spread that's not that great either.

Overdrive (mid-1970s and newer)3.09 1.67 1.00 0.73

This will be perfect with a diff gear ratio from 3.55 to 4.11s...

 

What I really like is the fact, that an A833 trans is a perfect trans for this purpose. It is also a Mopar 4 Mopar solution, not a Chevrolet or Ford solution for a Mopar.

The A833 trans is a lot tougher, even in the aluminum cased overdrive version, can easily handle over 400 ft lbs of torque, try that with your S10 T5 trans.

Not that most will be banging gears with their T5s,especially with the light duty 218 or 230 stock combos, there are no stops on the T5 stick shift.

4.03 to 1 in 1st, even with a 3.55 will almost be like granny low in a big truck 4spd trans, just not overly practical.

A Gent in my area, has a 32 Chrysler with a 250, basically a stock engine, has a T5 trans, with 3.90 gears, even with the 3.76 1st gear ratio, he often starts in 2nd gear as it is so low.

Now with a 3.06 1st gear on the A833, will be fine even with 3.90 or 4.11 gears.

I really do not see the need for 5 gear ranges, 3 and a 4th overdrive is more than adequate, another plus for and better than the T5 in my thoughts.

The reason most are flocking to a T5 conversion, as they have been told or counselled, by the Chevy luvin crowds, the T5 was so mass produced, its a cheap solution for those who can't afford a slight bit more for quality, or who cannot get out and find them.

Fargone, has just bought 3 in the Phoenix area in the past few weeks, they were mass produced too, and were ahead of their T5s time......

 

Hi all, not a whole lot happening this week, as it twas the week before Christmas.

I have started a build and/or prospective build thread for the A833 conversion. Now I hope to post as my progress rolls along, and it will be an honest detailed compilation complete with pics and videos.

Immediately after I started the new thread there were 2 who wanted to add a negative slant to the thread, under the guise of wanting info, and anyone who knows the history of 1 of thee 2 , knows they have no real interest in this swap. I did ask the suspect interested party if they wanted to upgrade there D24, he of course got annoyed and deflected my question. I have made it clear, that this is not a competition against a T5 or any other trans swap, they just don't get it, and want to create disharmony instead of adding to the thread, they are bent on pulling it apart.

My next thread, covers the topic of trailering with flathead powered cars and trucks, and I am meaning light trailers, 2500 lbs and less, I hope anyone who has a history of doing so will post from time to time, as there are members who ask this question every now and then. There are those who right away think this thread is implying about pulling heavy trailers like an Airstream, not at all, and I do suggest you have a very safe mechanically fit vehicle to do any trailer hauling. Again 1 member felt the need to post in a way that added some doubt  to the idea, he mentions insurance company restrictions ( which is good info), to vehicle types trailer type, automatic transmissions etc. While the theme of his post was not entirely negative, when asked about his experiences and how often or what type of trailer he pulls, he does not reply. I find this amusing, interested enough to state his opinions but not interested enough to state how much or what kind of trailer he pulls. I hope this thread grows over time too.

So here is a shout out to the AoK Boys, have a Merry Christmas and safe holiday season.....

 

Hi Guys -

I can sense the frustration here as well as out on the forum. I have never pretended to understand why so few dominate the forum landscape.  My observation is that there is clearly a culture of a few buddies who treat the site like their neighborhood bar. They are there every day solving all of the worlds problem. They have very little new information and recycle the same war stories over and over and any new comer is seen as a threat to their little worlds. In my short time here  and wandering in and out of the chat room its obvious the parallels to my neighborhood bar is what we have.  You need not speculate on a conspiracy. Thanks you the chat room feature showing you the conversation that took place long before you entered and the fact that members immediately bailing doesn't remove that history, I have seen it 1st hand.    The only thing I do not understand is why the moderators or the forum owner doesn't keep track and review the conversations.  Perhaps the traffic numbers help set advertising rates or some such thing.

My personal experience is the second I disagree with any of the usual suspects, I immediately get PM's from them.  It is very clear how transparent and naive they really are and my patience for being talked down to extends to showing them the door.

What I do know Gentlemen is like the local bar scenario, its unlikely things are going to change.  Unless you want to get a table and hang out from the time the bar opens until it closes you will always be an outsider, while the original regulars continue to puff out their chests and try and be experts on more and more, while talking about the same old things and way they did it in the good old days, until they have proven they really now more and more about less and less until finally everyone realizes they truly know everything about nothing.

If it wasn't for this Blog I think my exit plan would have long ago been enacted.  There are lots over other avenues to discuss things and for anyone who has posted somewhere on this blog in 2016 that wishes to PM me, they are welcome to do so. Clearly Tim has a firewall up to so far keep out the riff-raff.

I hope everyone had a great New Years Eve, and hope everyone has a Great 2017!

Barb