Before I put this P15 starter back together question

[3046moparcoupe]

Dis-assembled my starter for a cleanup and new coat of paint.

Since I've only got two hands and felt the need to be super careful (as I'd never taken a starter apart before) I had the starter assembly sitting vertically on its Bendix end in a small box padded with bubble wrap to hold it still while I removed the end plate and then pulled the armature out of the housing...probably overdone but I like to be careful with stuff,...anyway being pleased with the dis-assembly at this point, I looked down and noticed 2ea washers laying on the table top which I had not seen until that moment. Each about the size of a quarter with one being metal and the other a poly insulator type material. A quick look at the starter diagram in my parts manual, and it showed the two washers, located on the armature shaft, on the commutator end of the armature.

I have attached 2ea pictures from the manual showing the  washers. The manual also shows the washers to be A): pp# 641 446  fiber washer at 2ea  and B):pp#648 387 steel washer at 1ea...3ea total ?? (finally found the 2nd fiber washer located on the opposite end of the armature shaft).

Two questions please for those in the know

1):  I believe the steel washer needs to go next to the commutator and then the fiber washer would go on the end to insulate and keep bushing grease up inside the bushing and off the commutator and brushes. The manual also shows a note for the steel washer that reads "commutator end", so that would support the previous sentence as well, in my peanut head..??

2): The exploded view diagram also shows a 3rd part listed as a pad, which would be located on the end of the armature shaft to pad the end of the shaft against the end plate. manual also shows the pad listed as "end felt".  I would expect my felt pad dis-integrated a long time ago, anyway - what's the best thing to do here,....take a 1/16", 1/8", 1/4"  thick piece of felt and cut out a small circular pad, grease it, and insert it into the bushing hole of the end plate, when I assemble ?  I have some new moly wheel bearing grease I thought I would use for greasing the shaft/bushing ends, if that's not a good choice let me know, I would think any bearing grease would be ok, just not using too much !! but again if I was a pro at this I sure wouldn't be asking , would I ?

And for those reading or wondering, nope I didn't paint the indivual ends of the starter housings and end plate where the main ground is delivered from the engine flywheel cover to and thru the starter when it is bolted up. Yeah - maybe there's hope for me yet..

All reply's and responses are welcome, I really appreciate learning from the forum which I do believe has some of the best knowledge anywhere - regarding these awesome old rides...I realize I can get pretty caught up in the details - but I'm hoping that attention to detail will not only further my education but also help make for a better overall car when done.

thanks in advance for the help, again...!!

Steve G.

Edited October 3, 2017 by 3046moparcoupe

[Plymouthy Adams]

your drawing is different than my book show....it has the pad and one thrust washer on the brush end then as the stop washer (which could be a spring type) and then another thrust washer just before the forward bearing plate.......

Per your drawing, you have three washers with the same part number being the thrust washer....does not show the spring washer

will look in yet another book...

[Plymouthy Adams]

ok...consulting my book from the factory...the .065 Starter thrust washer 648387 is stock and should be in place each end.....the 672641 is an optional thrust washer for taking up play and is .041 thick and USED AS REQUIRED ont he commutator end..see the asterisk on the parts breakdown and note at bottom of page for application.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Plymouthy Adams

[3046moparcoupe]

Tim, this reply is sorta redundant on what you said in your 1st reply back,...you definitely understood my questioning.......but I'm not seeing the part # 672641 you mention - in my manual.

The 648387 washer at .065 is a match for my manual but it only shows a qty of 1ea. and lists it as steel, on the commutator end....I just measured my steel washer and It's very close at .067.

Manual I'm looking at lists both washer descriptions as thrust.

The 641446 washer at .031 is what my P15 manual shows for the second washer type, at a qty of 2ea...it lists it as "fiber thrust", so according to what I was seeing in my manual, that would be the 2ea washers found on opposite ends of the armature shaft. Also not seeing any reference to notes at the bottom of the page regarding these 2ea washer part numbers. Maybe a parts list manual , issue version, difference ? don't know.. maybe a manual error ?  I also just measured my fiber washer and it is also very close to what the book calls for, again I'm 2 thousands over at .033 thick.

Here's a couple more pics at what I'm looking at here manual wise....on the front of my manual its also states "ISSUED JANUARY 1946 This parts list cancels and supercedes D-11078, CHRYSLER CORPORATION PARTS DIVISION DETROIT 31 , MICHIGAN D-11082

My starter part number off the starter Id plate is 1113119.

S.

Edited October 3, 2017 by 3046moparcoupe

[Plymouthy Adams]

Steve...the parts page you printed show the three washer as having the same parts breakdown number and shows THREE of these in your picture....look close....there is one of the first contradictions.....now for the truth per my manual and using the asterisk beside the part number...661446 is .031 thick and IS LISTED OPTIONAL USE AS NEEDED as is 669412 being a .015 and also IS LISTED OPTIONAL USE AS NEEDED and 672641 as .047 and IS LISTED OPTIONAL USE AS NEEDED ........BUT......... the commutator end is 648387 and is .065 thick and is NOT OPTIONAL  all come under the same drawing number of 8-52-121...now the real killer here is this....you use the washer as you have on hand or as needed to obtain the armature end play of .005 to .030 play on assembly...you do not want less than .005 and you want no more than .030...that is the call for the different thickness washer and why my book list them as optional..they are to address end play per application.....

Edited October 3, 2017 by Plymouthy Adams

[3046moparcoupe]

OK, maybe this will be of help to someone else out there trying to learn.

I went over to Ft Worth Starter and Generator this morning, and they confirmed without me showing them anything in the book, the metal washer goes next to the commutator, then the fiber washer goes on the shaft last, before the end cap  that holds the brushes. The little pad (which I did not have), is /was just a circular piece of felt, that he said was original soaked in oil for lubrication,...he said now a days he just puts a little wheel bearing grease inside the bushing and puts-em together.

Nice folks over there at Fort Worth Starter and Generator.

onward through the fog.

Steve