Bingster

I just removed the starter and I think I see the reason for two problems. First, there is a notch in the rear of the plunging cylinder that is supposed to allow the yoke cylinder to clear the cylinder. I can't say if this is standard or unique to this situation, but in any event, the yoke assembly does not clear the rear of the plunger. As it looks now, they are touching and rubbing together. This may account for the inordinate amount of power needed for the solenoid to pull in the pmunger. Second, these two parts touching may account for why every terminal combination I tried sparks when touched together. Improperly grounded or what? I also sense that there might be some friction when the plunger is supposed to be pushed into the starter case. In other words, this damn thing wouldn't work from the git go. Now, this guy owns a Johnston auto parts chain outlet. I do not now think he is a specialist at electrical parts. He is not a friend. (especially now). He did come with a recommendation from a car dealership, but it was more of a "he knew where to find a part that was hard to get" type of thing, not "he fixed a part that was hard to fix." I had asked the car dealership who could rebuild a starter in our area and he was the guy mentioned. I'm not even going to bother going back there. I'll eat the hundred bucks, but as this starter is also "hard to find" I don't want him to do any more damage. I never authorized him to put on an aftermarket starter. Sooo, I at least want to bench test this thing "as is" to see what it does. I don't think it will do anything. I think the solenoid is too mismatched to the starter. Then I want to remove the cover from the old Auto Lite solenoid and take a look inside. I'd like to replace it with my NOS relay that is identical, and then test the solenoid again. I'm not totally incompetent with a soldering gun. I would rather find somebody who could do it, but I think this Auto Lite solenoid throws people a curve with that fourth ground post for the relay. That's why it was easier and less work for the guy who did mine to just replace it. I go along with the fella who said to learn to repair certain parts myself. The biggest thing I did wrong was not to bench test the starter myself before I put it back into the car. I just figured he did it. Now that I have it back out I feel confident that when all is said and done I'll have a starter that works. And BTW, I greatly appreciate all of you who have helped me out along the way.

I just called the guy who put the new solenoid on, and he said that he was worried when he tested the starter that it was taking a helluva lot of power to get it to work. He suggested I try to make it work using a battery charger. At any rate, he said to bring it back in. I asked him if the positive ground of my car might have something to do with the starter not working. He wasn't sure. He did say that he changed over all of his 6v cars to 12v cause they weren't dependable or something to that affect. I would be happy just to get my $$ back at this point and work on the starter myself. Seems like there were too many things he either didn't know or could figure to try out.

Actually, before I took the starter in to be rebuilt, there was a small click when I applied power to the relay at the smaller terminal where the push button on the dash would have been connected. At this time the starter did spin as well. So the starter worked but the solenoid didn't but it made a click. Now, after having a new solenoid put on the old starter motor, the starter doesn't spin and the solenoid makes no sound but everything sparks! There's plenty of power coming from the new battery. I'm gonna have to take the starter out of the car, go back to when the starter spins, and replace the old Auto Lite relay with a NOS Auto Lite relay that I have. That's what I wanted the guy to do, but he went ahead and put on a newer solenoid. And then make certain on the bench that the damn things works before I bolt it onto the car.

Yeah, out it comes again.

The solenoid that guy put on is 6v, but are solenoids specifically wired for positive or negative ground? I figured it wouldn't matter, but my batting average hasn't been very good of late.

On my original 4 post starter, a two-post relay sits piggy back on top of the two larger posts that go to the starter motor and the hot wire from the battery. So when I say "relay" I mean that separate part of the total solenoid. Well, even though I have installed the new rebuilt starter on the car, I just cannot get it to do anything except spark. That it does very well. This is the new 3-post solenoid the guy put on the my starter for me. I've hooked up the proper terminals and jumped here and there and have tried every combination but no go. I can't even get the starter to spin. There must be a short somewhere in the wiring. Why else would I just be getting sparks? I've got to get a new voltmeter and learn how to use it because mine is stone age. I've looked at dozens of You Tube videos on how to troubleshoot starter problems, but my problem doesn't seem so simple as having the wires in the wrong place. When I did put my probes from with antiquated voltmeter to the proper terminals on the solenoid they did, from what I can tell, registered properly on the meter. But as I say, my old voltmeter registers by a needle and various scales and I don't know if I'm reading it right or even if I have the right scale. I know, get a new one and learn how to use it. I'll save all of you the trouble and kick myself in the pants. But I was hoping it would be as simple as hooking up the right wires.

Thanks. I know for sure that the starter spins. It's the relay that's bad.

Thanks Rich. I guess I'll just chalk it up to experience. Seems like it might be a hassle trying to haggle my $126.00 back. He was nice. Only charged me $15.00 labor. Supposedly the guy owns classic cars from the sixties. But you'd think that he might know that the three-poster would not work. So I guess that upper left smaller post that is grounded to the gen actually needs to be grounded to the gen for the original solenoid to work. The new solenoid isn't, and therein lies the rub. What would I have done if I couldn't repair the 4705? What starter would I be able to use?

On the diagram, I seem to see a terminal on the coil in the middle between + and -. It leads to the transmission rely Bat. My coil only has + and -.

Joecoozie, thanks for the color diagram. I had purchased a commercial one off eBay years ago but I cannot find it.

Thanks, Rich. I have a crude voltmeter. Any suggestions for a good, not too expensive one?

Ah, that makes sense about the wire. Thanks. The starter is in the car but has not been able to be started yet. Yes, the older 4-post solenoid was grounded to the gen. If the new 3-post doesn't work, I'm going to rebuild the original starter because I do have a relay to put on it. I hope somehow I get a starter that works.

I think what the repair guy did was test the solenoid and when it didn't work instead of taking it apart he just ordered a new one. I found the one on-line that he got. He should have called me and gave me a choice. What if I wanted to keep it original? Rich, can you tell me why there is a smaller gauge wire coming from the push button on the dash to the relay terminal? My solenoid is stamped 10 amp. Will straight amperage from the battery burn the relay out? I haven't been able to ascertain where the push button is picking up it's hot wire from. There is the ammeter and the ignition switch in the mix.

Yes, my solenoid is stamped ss4705.

The De Soto parts book lists the number for the "Switch, Starting Motor, Assembly," Solenoid type as 957 467 The relay is listed as 861 500.

Yeah, I should have bench started it before I put it on. Kinda dumb.

Yes, I got my NOS relay back. There is a guy on You Tube who bought an S-11 like mine, took the 4-post solenoid out and has a 7-part series on this very same starter as mine. Old Crow's Classic Cars. His relay is exactly the same as mine. However, the number on the Auto Lite NOS box seems to be 861500. Maybe the guy I bought it from put the NOS relay in another box, but it's the spitting image of the guy's on You Tube, which is identical to mine. I can't tell the guy I bought it from that it's no good because I don't really know till I can test it. If my NOS relay turns out to be good can give it a shot at rebuilding it myself. Doesn't look too difficult. I will tell you that the new solenoid the guy put on for me is a very tight fit. Not much clearance. But I guess the solenoid would do something even if the plunger was was stuck. Rich, I didn't see any number on your chart that matched mine. Something's amiss. Maok, I didn't see any horn wire attached to the starter solenoid in the diagram. Lower left large post wired to the starter motor, large lower right post to the battery negative hot, upper right small post to the horn button and the upper left grounded to the generator.

Okay. So the old 4-post starter on my 47' De Soto turned the engine over a few times a month ago, but a week later no go. When the two large terminals were later crossed, the starter spun but nothing from the smaller relay posts on the top. I deduced it was a bad rely, and when I came across a NOS relay on Ebay for $80 I bought it and took the starter and the NOS rely to a local guy to have him make the damn thing work. Okay. So I went to pick up the starter, and I saw it had a shiny new 3-post relay sitting atop the starter about where the old one was. He said the NOS relay I brought him didn't work, but when I pressed him he seemed to say that he didn't know if the NOS relay I brought him was any good cause he went ahead and installed the new solenoid because a guy in the parts biz he knew had one 6v. starter solenoid left in stock and they put it on my starter. The guy's web site that I bought the NOS relay from said that all his parts had been tested. I have to assume it's actually good. Okay. Took the rebuilt starter home, put in back on the car ( what a b____) and no start. As of right now I'm still troubleshooting, but I have a question that may make a difference, and I'm not sure that this guy could give me an accurate answer. I've gone over a lot of "how a starter works" You Tube videos and of course I had to compensate for positive ground and a 3-post solenoid instead of four. I know how the terminals work and what they're for, so I won't bore you with that. But what I did see on the videos is that the hot wire going from the battery to the starter is a heavy gauge, and I have that covered, but the wire from the push button on the dash to the thinner post on the solenoid is a much lighter gauge wire. But it's still hot from the diagram I've been pouring over. Obviously, I think, the amperage of the large wire from the battery terminal is much higher than the smaller gauge wire from the starter button. I've been trying to trace where and how the higher amp hot from the battery converts into a smaller amp wire. Seems to me that the smaller wire has to have a lower amperage, but where was this conversion made in the wiring diagram? Or did it? And am I risking burning out the new relay if I apply straight battery higher amperage juice to the new lighter gauge post on the solenoid. Am I making any sense? Lucky for me the colder weather has been unusually spotty this time of year and there's still some 47 degree weather in the mix. I'd like to get this car started before Spring.

I'll check it out. It's good for me to learn about another aspect of the car.

I dug a pit under the car and so can get to it. It will take me awhile to figure out what you said. This is a new part of the car I am finding out about. There have been so many just to get the car started. And it still won't even turn over. Just had the starter rebuilt and maybe I have a wiring problem, but it only sparks when I screwdriver the terminals. Maybe I am hitting the wrong terminals. I have gone through numerable You Tube videos and am still troubleshooting. But I thought that in any event I should have the car in neutral when it fires up.

I put the shift lever back on the column and am able to shift through the gears, but there are no "stops" at each gear like high, etc. I can slide through the range but it's like moving through one big gear. I don't know if I am actually in neutral when the shift lever is in the neutral position.

I am ready to attempt to start up my '47 DeSoto after waiting a long time to get everything hopefully together, but it seems to me that the car isn't in neutral and I had already dismantled the clutch. If the engine fires will the car drive out of the garage? I do have fluid drive.

Thanks!

Well, got the starter rebuilt and am ready to attempt to start Carlo. Contrary to the manual's advice, the starter will not clear the oil filter tubing and thus the starter cannot be lifted out from above without hitting the tubing. Somebody attached the filter onto a head bolt, and after playing around trying to take the bolt out I thought better of it until I remove the head some day. But I have a question about the filter tubing connections. They are flare fittings, and when I removed the tubing from the oil pressure gauge line and the filter oil intake, I noticed that the holes inside the brass fittings were very small, and I was wondering if the flare fitting could block the holes and prevent oil from passing through them.

I'm selling my house and so the car will need to be driven onto a trailer and then driven down at the other end. Still, I don't want anything rubbing. Once I get the car to wherever it is we end up living, I imagine I will only have a one or two-stall garage. Not really a lot of space to move around in. So basically I need tires for the move itself. The car won't see the road for quite some time. I'm going to call the dismantling yards around here and see what they might have.