54 Plymouth Manual Transmission And Clutch Questions

[denmopar]

While I had the transmission pulled during a clutch replacement, I replaced the noisy input shaft bearing. I didn't have a seal kit yet, so I didn't pull apart the trans to see about the  grinding while shifting into second from first. The gear oil level as found was low and appeared very dark, so I changed it with Walmart SAE 80W-90 (GL-5) I recently read elsewhere on the forums that this unit should have GL-1..?.. 

Well- so much for my wishful hoping....Never comes to pass.....It still grinds a bit when shifting unless I make a purposeful delay through the pattern.

Sooo, I am pulling the unit and doing a tear-down to check the synchronizers....I read what info is in the simple 46-54 Plymouth manual and it mentions either a "pin" synchro or the "clutch" type.....A bit confused with that one.

Is there a more comprehensive transmission manual covering 1954, for inexperienced Mopar guys like me?

 

My second question has to do with clutch replacement in these little beasts:

Since the clutch chattered a bit due to numerous oil leaks being blown rearward from the pan gaskets and pump cover, I order a new- not rebuilt- kit from the internet. (Made in USA, I'm told by the vendor.)

I had the flywheel resurfaced at the local machine shop (he knows what he is doing.) Brand new clutch disc, pressure plate assembly, throw-out bearing and pilot bushing installed with near-surgical cleanliness, into a scrubbed and blasted clean and grease-free bell housing. Very little grease into the bushing recess per the shop manual.

Clutch feels great- but chatters worse than the original.....Received a new pressure plate to try.....First time for me to have a new clutch chatter...Always a first time, I suppose....

Something I may have overlooked?

 

Thanks for any constructive info.

 

 

[Don Coatney]

Need more information. Was your flywheel resurfaced using a grinding wheel or a lathe cutting tool? Was your replacement pilot bushing an oilite bushing (impreginated with oil) or a standard bronze bushing? Does your replacement throw out bearing have brass sleaves or UHMW sleeves?

 

A grinding wheel will remove the hot spots on a flywheel but a lathe cuttiung tool will not.

 

An oilite bushing should be soaked in oil and no grease used as grease will pllug up the oil pores.

 

I once installed a new UHMW sleeved throw out bearing and it chattered directly. I replaced it with my old bronze bushing and all was well.

[denmopar]

Thanks for the input!

I don't know if the bushing is oilite or simply bronze.  I just followed the shop manual directions.

I didn't see a brass surface on the replacement  throwout.

The flywheel appears to have been done on a surface grinder...but I'll verify what method tomorrow.

Machinist mentioned he "cleaned" it .006" if I recall.

I'm pulling it apart tomorrow. A replacement press plate is waiting. I'll see if one of two places has a fixture and guage to measure for proper finger/ spring tension on the former assy.

Thanks again for your insight.

 

Den-

[denmopar]

After pulling it apart and verifying with the machinist,, the flywheel was ground on a machine for just that purpose.

Another look and it appears the pilot bushing is indeed bronze.

This was an eBay kit from a seller with 100% feedback, so I took a chance....At $230 for the kit, it wasn't a "screamin' deal" that I would normally be wary of....

Unfortunately, I think the p/plate and disc are not any good.

I see no evidence of  Marcel spring undulations. Seems to be as flat as can be.

 

 Admittedly, with mild frustration, I had _lightly_ slipped the clutch with wishful thoughts of magically setting the assembly and eliminating the chatter.....

This resulted in six evenly spaced hot spots on the press/plate, with two spots about one inch in length at each position, one near inner and one near outer edges on the plate, all near identical in size and shape, equidistant and centered between the three fingers. Hmmm.

 

I'm taking all three press/plates (one used, one w/ spots and one never installed new)- to a local machine shop/ engine rebuilder to see if he can test them for flatness and even application and pressure. The shop that ground the flywheel didn't have the adapters, etc to re-surface or check p/plates. Everything is "outta the box" it seems, these days.

I cleaned up the old plate- was just glazed- put patina on it with mild siphon sand blasting and cleaned assembly thoroughly....Just in case I have to resort to reusing it.

 

Without a doubt, I will "eat" my mistake in sourcing and order a _properly_ made or rebuilt disc....Any recommendations? I've dealt with both Mitchell and Bernbaum with mixed results. This old car thing isn't like it was 20 years ago when playing with Buicks.

 

That's all I have for info on the clutch for now.....Now I have to delve into the transmission back on the bench.....One minor oil leak from a hole located lowest-center at the bottom of case front...Appears to have a shaft or shift rail in it?  Maybe a tired "O" ring seal there?

That- and learning what 2nd gear synchro type before pulling it apart.

[suntennis]

Sometimes bad motor mounts will cause clutch type chatter. The oil  leak at the front of the transmission can be stopped with a sealant over the area or maybe a disk type freeze plug.

[Don Coatney]

Do you still have your original pressure plate and disc?

 

Contact these folks for clutch parts and pressure plate service. You will find there service is top notch and about 1/2 the price you paid on the bay. Many folks here have used them.

 

[denmopar]

suntennis:

Thanks for the tip regarding the leak....Seems too easy!...I was imagining some O-ring replacement involved after pulling the fixed shaft, though the "book" I have doesn't show one in the parts blowup drawing. How else can one expect a leak-free condition without seals of some sort at that location?

 

Don-

Thanks for your lead. I'll inquire tomorrow. Yes, I have the formerly rebuilt Borg & Beck ( stamped I.D.) 9 1/8" disc and the pressure plate that came with the car. (No printing or stamping I.D. just like the two new no-name  units.)The chatter/ burn marks were at least evenly distributed on the old oily plate.

I had checked with the only other machine shop in my area and they can't do pressure plates either, and after inquiring at Bernbaum's I was informed their reman discs had no Marcel washers either! Just straight metal (to the eyes) as my new disc has.......The OEM Borg disc has readily discernible undulations, as mentioned.

My decision is to go with an honest, qualified clutch rebuilder. I did check with H&R clutches in Pennsylvania and chatted with Joe Sr. about my issues with the clutch.

After talking with your recommended source tomorrow, I'll decide then.

The two hundred plus bucks worth of pressure plates and disc will join my buddies scrap metal pile....Lessons learned.

 

Thanks!

Dennis

[Don Coatney]

Nice thing is your pressure plate and disc will fit in a USPS flat rate box so weight makes no difference in shipping.

[denmopar]

Yes, Don- There has to be a bright spot in all this.

Trans is on the teardown bench....Oil drained- Pulling apart tomorrow- then order a gasket set , synchro parts and anything else I may need. At least I won't have to set up any torque balls....(That's a real Buick treat...) The cleaning, re-lube and rubber boot installations with pins in place on the driveshaft were an experience enough. (Now I get the concept of childbirth....Squeezing all that rubber through that relatively small area then having the relief of the boot popping out where it belongs.

I've learned a bit about my Plymouth so far. Lots more to learn.

Hoping for a final time next.....

 

Den-

[thrashingcows]

Wow sorry to hear about your issues with your "new" parts.  But I also thank you for posting up all the information you have garnered so far....great help for others when trying to diagnoses similar issues.

[denmopar]

Thanks for the kind words. Lots more for the old guy to learn here.

I decided, after a brief  phone chat with Randall of Tennessee Clutch, to send him my clutch parts....They're on their way there as I type this....I sent him the original  set  and the two new pressure plates to evaluate and determine if they are worthy of a proper setup or not.

 

I thought I had a flange puller for the transmission....Guess I gave it away or it developed legs sometime in history.....Going to try and source one tomorrow- or concoct a homebrew if all else fails.

 

Dennis

[denmopar]

Just a note to thank Randall of Tennessee Clutch and Supply for the great job of rebuilding my clutch parts, to George Asche for the transmission parts and advice regarding my manual transmission issue (still ongoing,)- Don C. and all the others who shared their wisdom and experience on ancient Mopar.