GlennCraven

Well then it will exceed my price range and will be safe. ... That's the only thing I could think of doing with it; dropping in a big engine and making it a street machine or a drag car. The Hagerty Insurance website estimates it's worth under $10K in No. 1 show-winning condition. Edit: The price has already ballooned to $315.

As donor cars go, this 1974 Dart Swinger in my area (40 minutes away) looks suitable. First bidder has it at $300 and there's no reserve. Supposedly a good-running 318 and it's an automatic transmission. While I do have respect for all old cars, big and small, pricey and cheap, my conscience would be relatively clear if I took a '74 Swinger out of circulation. Does anyone else here think that would be a shame? If it stays cheap, it has: A running 318. (Though a stock '74 318 probably makes no more power than the '69 Valiant 273 I've been eyeballing, it has more potential upon rebuild.) The automatic transmission I need. (I'm guessing a 904? Might it be a 727?) Identical model year and color to my first girlfriend's car -- heck, it could BE her car -- so I could crush the remnants as she crushed my tender teenage heart. How about other useful parts? From what I read, the rear end ratio could be a 2.75 (standard), or a 3.21 or 3.55 (optional). Would the latter be Sure Grips? This vintage of Dart should have front disc brakes. Rear are drums from what I can find online. Anything in there I can use? Would its radiator be better than a stock '49 Windsor's if I'm swapping in a V8? Anything else? I get paid tomorrow and will go offer on the Windsor. If he sells it, then I can see about being a player on this Dart if that makes sense. It's definitely close enough to visit and hear it run before bidding.

How slow is "slow?" ... I'm looking at buying a 1949 Chrysler Windsor coupe minus engine and transmission. I already own a 1992 Pontiac Firebird parts car with a very strong-running 3.1L V6 (231, fuel-injected) and good 700r4 and have given passing consideration to putting that in the Chrysler as an interim measure just to get the car moving under its own power for a couple of years while I work on the rest of it. I'd rather either go original with a flathead six or stay Mopar with an LA small block V8, but the way this V6 moves a 3,000-pound Firebird, I wouldn't have thought it would be THAT slow in a 3,800-pound Windsor. Not any slower than the original 251 flathead for sure. Of course, it is a latter-year 231 and fuel-injected, not a "malaise" model late-70s or early '80s with a carburetor. I'd be interested in knowing more about your driving experiences with that Buick 231 in your '48 P15.

These both sound like a blast, and yes, should be as much fun to drive as anything else on the road.

This really should be Rule 1 for me. I can get a lot of joy out of putting together a smooth-running, reliable vehicle with classic lines and features. A somewhat aggressive stance and sound from the tailpipe wouldn't hurt, but it doesn't really have to smoke the tires for a block or corner like a sports car. Someday I wouldn't mind having that capability in a car like this, but price and wrenching experience are both limiters for me right now. Whether old flathead six and Fluid Drive, flat-six and more modern transmission, or an LA small block and modern transmission, all seem to be fairly straightforward drivetrain options. I'd like to consider the prospects of upgrading to disc brakes all-around. Eventually I might like to have Vintage Air (it hits 100 or even 110 here in the summers) and a stereo, without undoing the original appearance of the interior. My honest, first vision for the car was something of a period hot rod or custom; maybe what a teenager would have done with this two-door Chrysler if he managed to scrape up the money to buy it as his first car in the late 1950s or the 1960s. ... Get it running and start driving it to "school" and work. Fix it up and add more cool stuff as I go along and finances allow. Late-50s would suggest sticking with a flathead and building/dressing it up a little, which would be cool. The LA small block came along in 1964 and would be a suitable "modern" engine for the '49 Windsor. I think that's one of the reasons the (advertised as) good-running 273 that's still available on eBay for $150 has a strong appeal for me. It's inexpensive and one like it would have been readily available from a late-model wreck at a salvage yard in the latter stages of this era I'm envisioning. (Of course, after 1967, so would a 318.) Obviously to really hot-rod something, even in the 1950s and 1960s, a four-on-the-floor would be the tranny of choice. But I do want to keep the stock shift lever in this car because it looks so good, and though I enjoy shifting and the "driving experience," I'm OK with an automatic. Power disc brakes would be a bit beyond the scope of that '50s-'60s constant work-in-progress, but in the 21st century it seems responsible to give the car modern stopping power when I can. Of course the air and stereo (especially with CD and maybe Sirius/XM) would also be outside the realm of what that 1950s or '60s teen could have done, but maybe we can just say that the teenager held onto the car into his adult years and decided to eventually dress it up as a more comfortable cruiser. Those would likely be the last things I'd add and that would seem fitting. That should be a fairly simple and (as project cars go) fairly inexpensive way to go. Buy the rolling car. Buy the drivetrain. Install and get it running. Make sure the brakes stop it. Get a tag. Head to Sonic for a milkshake.

I went back to the salvage yard yesterday and talked with the owner in person. He at first suggested he would drop the 360 and 727 into whatever car I had along with the price of purchase if I was willing to then tow it home and finish the job ... wiring, fuel lines, etc. But when I told him it was a 1949 Windsor he hesitated. He wanted to know what sort of subframe I had in it, or would want in it. And the rear axle. I said some folks who should know told me the stock front suspension on the old car was probably sufficient unless I really wanted to toss the Chrysler around the curves, and the rear end would be fine if I didn't abuse it. He was unconvinced. "I've built a few street rods," he said. "If you don't subframe it and change out the rear end, you're gonna be disappointed in how it drives." I know what he's thinking, but I'm not sure he's right. I wish I could go for ride in somebody's car with newer drivetrain and original suspension and rear end to see what it's like. Just as interesting, the salvage lot owner valued the Firebird higher than I would have imagined. Essentially he suggested he'd buy the Firebird off me for what I have in it. I'll take it by the salvage yard in the next week or so, when I can move it down from my girlfriend's garage an hour away, and see if he'll make good on that. Breaking even would be a super deal for me. I'd have a great story (buying the Firebird on eBay, then picking it up and driving it home t-topless in a tornado) and I would have made a decent relationship with a guy who has a lot of old parts and iron laying around right here in my own neighborhood, plus connections of his own.

Yeah, even before the auction ended on this Firebird I was hoping somebody would bid $251. I certainly don't NEED it. I can still crush it for what I paid, at least. Good news on the rear end, fellas. And yes, even if that 360 had 400 or 500 horsepower, I wouldn't have to drive it like that.

So I went out to one of the two local salvage yards today to pick up t-tops for this eBay Firebird. They had 'em out of a Camaro (same fit) for $40 a side when the best price anywhere else in the region was $75 a side and Camaro/Firebird specialty salvage yards quote $125 a side. While out there, I asked if they had any running Mopar small blocks. The owner's wife working the inventory computer said she'd check, but a young guy who works in the yard said the owner had something at home he might be willing to sell. The couple bought the salvage yard in the last year or so and recently have been moving cars the owner has acquired over decades onto the front lot of the rural property in anticipation of an auction later this summer. "You can't fix 'em all," the wife finally convinced him, and since there are probably 30 to 40 vehicles out there for the auction already, no doubt she is right. "Anything that's still in the garage he's probably got plans for," the woman said. "I dunno," said the young man. "I know of one motor like that he has out there for sure and it can't hurt to ask." Moments later, while the young man was retrieving the t-tops from a shelf in the warehouse, the owner called from town to ask what everyone wanted picked up for lunch. His wife handed over the phone to me, saying a customer wanted to ask about an engine. I asked about small block Mopars. The man said he had an engine and transmission combo he'd sell; a 360 and a 727 pulled from a Dodge pickup he'd acquired. The price for the combination, with all necessary parts and accessories, ready to install, would be (cough) $800. "Are you looking for mild or wild?" he asked. "Mild would be fine, but wild is interesting, too," I replied. "I take it this might be wild." "It's wild," he said. "I don't know how they built it. I don't know what they put in it. But it peeled the right rear tire clean off that truck, if that tells you anything." Sounds like something that would require more than the factory 1949 Windsor rear end, huh?

Thanks again everyone for the great input, phone numbers for experts and everything! The car still hasn't sold and I'm gettin' around to going back and making an offer. Meanwhile, I got briefly derailed this weekend by sort of flippantly buying a 1992 Firebird "parts car" on eBay for $250. It had "sold" once, for a couple hundred more than that, but the buyer never contacted the seller at auction's close, so the seller posted it again. I didn't expect $250 to hold up, but it did. The car was a couple hours away from me, had been hit in the left front and buggered up a bit elsewhere (minus left front fender, busted windshield, and somebody made off with the T-tops, otherwise its complete) and allegedly ran and drove well. Considering it's a 3,000-pound vehicle and the local metal dealer pays $190 a ton for cars, I figure worst-case scenario (provided it did run and drive) I would drive it home Sunday, drive it to the scrapyard today, and get my money back, all but the gas for the trip. The 'Bird is only a 3.1 V6, but at 118k miles it runs like a scalded cat! Now ... she drives like a crab, and I wouldn't call that "drives good" ... but I was shocked how much power the fuel-injected V6 had and how easily, once I knew how to manage the off-handling, I could do 70 mph on Kansas back-highways at 2,000 RPMs with the overdrive auto transmission. Sounds like a hotrod, too. Everything still attached to the car, works. Brakes were fine. But it needs both front fenders, driver's door and left quarter straightened or replaced, plus a headliner, new shocks, the windshield and the T-tops ($40 a side at my local salvage) so there's probably too much work to make fixing the Firebird worth it, considering a clean one can be had for $1,500 almost any day of the week. My girlfriend loves the way this Firebird sounds -- best girlfriend EVER, totally wants this Windsor as much as I do -- and she suggested putting the Firebird drivetrain in the Chrysler at least for the time being. (Because I told her, "In theory you can put almost anything in almost anything, if you have the money and expertise.") ... I suppose that COULD be done, though eventually a Mopar solution for the Windsor's drivetrain is mandatory for me. I could also pull this drivetrain to sell, roll the car into the scrapyard, remove the factory alloys to see if I can get $100 for the set on Craigslist, and crush the rest, to maybe come out ahead. Or trade drivetrain for drivetrain with a salvage yard or something. I needed my haphazard eBay parts-car purchase to be a Mopar V8, but I haven't seen any of those yet, on eBay or Craiglist.

Thanks, Dodger! ... Everybody wants to be a smart guy, but one of the smartest things a guy can ever do is recognize when somebody else knows a lot more than he does and defer to their knowledge and experience.

Thanks. That's a good thread that illustrates many opinions. I like the comment, "Build a package that will put a smile on your face at the end of the day." But while there are pro-273 comments, there are definitely those who suggest something entirely different. I still don't have the car yet (and he still does, the crucial element), so there's plenty of time to still consider drivetrain combos. It's a hard enough decision between L6/Fluid Drive (available in South Dakota), L6/904, and LA small block/904. Then I start trying to figure between 273/318/360 and the plot thickens further. So far this 273 is the best deal I've seen. Known running when pulled, supposedly only needs a distributor cap, comes with everything else including the A/C compressor if I wanted or needed it, and priced at $150. He started at $300 some time ago and hasn't been able to sell it. I might pick it up for $100 cash, who knows? I've seen plenty of 318s that were rebuilders for $100-$150, and even a couple of 360 short blocks for $300. But nothing yet that looked like you could just drop it in and go. (As much as you CAN "just drop in" a different vintage engine between these 1949 fenders.) And the 273 would definitely be different.

Let me just start this installment by saying I love you guys and this place! Thanks for clarification on the firewall situation. Certainly makes a 318 Mopar solution sound easier than a Chevy swap like the seller suggests! What a great Coffeyville story, and probably not all that uncommon a tale. Kansas is full of friendly folks. The whole world is, I suppose, if you're lucky enough to run across them. When my family moved to North Carolina years ago, my wife (now ex) and my kids had car trouble near the Illinois-Indiana line. They stayed in a motel near Grayville, Ill., and there isn't much else in Grayville. They were stuck for five days, but it ended up being a wonderful experience. Once they ordered delivery from Pizza Hut and when they went down to the front desk to pick up their order, they found that the motel staff had paid the bill; bought them dinner. It was Christmas break, and on Christmas morning the wife and kids were called down to the desk, where the motel staff had bought candy and gifts for my son and daughter. The local mechanic decided the engine was junk in my wife's 1986 VW Cabriolet. My family chipped in to put a new engine in the car. Probably wasn't worth it, but they wanted to do it and the car had been a gift and was meaningful to her at the time. The Grayville mechanic towed the car to the VW dealer in Evansville, Ind., and dropped my family at a car rental place so they could drive on to North Carolina. Obviously I've never forgotten all that kindness. As for the Fury convertible ... do you have pictures? LOL! Yeah, I check Craigslist daily. For fun if nothing else. It might be hard to beat the $300 parts car deal from this board, even with the 18-hour round trip. Most of the L6s I run across are priced around $1,000 and a lot of them don't run; this seller says his does, and fairly well. The Victory Six I mentioned in case anyone else was interested. I didn't presume it was workable here. But it's pretty cool to know it's out there. ... He never called back, though, so I assume his friend decided not to sell. Great advice, and there's much to be said for not reinventing the steering, cooling, suspension and wiring. If I do go with a swap, a 318 probably makes the most sense, though there's still a $150, running 273 for sale on eBay that's a day-trip away from me if I want to buy it. Car must be originally a Fluid Drive. I assume so, at least, without being under it yet. "Fluid Drive" is printed in the chrome surrounding the rear license plate. A question about a transmission swap (even if the engine stays a flat six) ... if I go with a 904, can I still use the stock column-shift lever? It's part of the instrument/controls design and it all looks so great together.

Strike all that. Somebody apparently finally bought the DeSoto. Current auction canceled.

That's the car, Harold. It's a couple of hours away from me and I'm hoping to go see it. The car has been eBayed repeatedly over the last several weeks without selling. I didn't figure on using the wrong doors, though they do seem to have them ON the car anyway. But I appreciate your warning because it confirms what I was only guessing about before -- pretty definitive incompatibility. Especially if this went down according to plan, that car would sit off to the side while the Windsor gets the attention. That would give me time (years, perhaps) to try and trade or sell the doors it has for correct doors. ... Although a quick search has suggested they don't exactly grow on trees.

More good advice, thanks! If this project comes to pass I won't screw with the steering or front suspension. It does seem like you're agreeing a recessed firewall makes sense. That's probably no small piece of cutting and welding. With an available parts car with working driveline at a reasonable price still in South Dakota (from this message board, provided he hasn't sold or crushed it) the very easiest thing would be to stay as stock as possible, with exceptions for things that are easier, more affordable and safer if made modern, like the disc brakes you mention. I still have in the back of my mind a double-project scheme, since I've noticed not just this WIndsor that's still for sale, but a cheaper 1949 DeSoto coupe someone's having trouble selling. The DeSoto has already been mangled a little (subframed for Chevy, wrong model-year of doors?). Though it seems to be getting ahead of myself, I'm considering getting the pair and working on the Windsor first because it's cleaner and the mostly stock configuration would be less confusing and demanding for a first project. Then when I've learned a little something, I could try tackling the DeSoto with a non-stock drivetrain and make it much more of a rod or custom vehicle. It's cheap enough now that if I can swing it, the best thing for the car would be to get it indoors even if it is going to sit for two or three or four years until something can be done with it. Oh, and the Outer Banks are fantastic. While living in North Carolina we took a couple of vacations there, staying up around Corolla and Duck. That whole 200-mile stretch is a spectacular strip of American history and geography. Finally, three cheers for saving the Fury convertible from the crusher!

I feel the same, mostly. And I'm not an oldster; just 46. But my girlfriend, who drives a 2013 Mustang, ribs me for how slow I drive -- the speed limit, that is, or four or five over. ... When we go anywhere and she drives, she suggests I just take a nap and when I wake up we'll probably be there. Well, I did say "perhaps ease." I've never had one of these flatheads. The advice here is that parts remain plentiful. I have no direct personal experience yet to confirm that.

I think this answer to Dave's question pretty much sums it up. Some guys figure, "Why have a 318 when you can have a 360?" Which leads to "Why have a 360 when you can have a 383?" Or a 440? Or a 426 Hemi? Eventually funding would probably be the only thing limiting their horsepower. If I go the swap route instead of running a more stock flathead six, it'll be in order to have plenty of power to cruise and pass at highway speeds, to eventually run modern convenience options (namely Vintage Air) when the car is fully built-out, and to perhaps ease the parts search if I get in a jam, particularly when out on the road. As I noted above, articles abound for building a 400-horse 318 for about $1,500, and for the way I would drive the car I can't imagine ever needing more than 400 horsepower. Really more than 275 to 300. Making 235 hp like the 273s in the Formula S Barracudas would probably not disappoint me. BTW, the 904 trans was one of the parts the seller wanted when he bought the 1969 Valiant as a donor car. So it isn't available.

I definitely came to the right place! Thanks to everybody for all the advice and parts offered so far. I didn't have a chance to work anything out with the guy this weekend, but he does still have the car for sale. Perhaps the longer it sits without someone else buying it, the better the price might be for me. That could backfire of course if somebody suddenly shows up to buy. On the later-model small block front, as noted, I saw advice on other boards warning away from a 318 (and others saying the 318 would be just fine). How bad would it be to go even smaller? ... There's a running 273 out of a supposedly 98,000-mile 1969 Plymouth Valiant on eBay for $150, ending in a few hours, and nobody's bidding. It could easily go unsold and be picked up about four hours from my house for that $150 as a private sale. It was backed by a 904 in the original Valiant and I've asked if the trans is also available, though it wasn't listed for sale at this time. He hasn't answered yet, but he answered quickly before so I should know soon. Obviously a 273 is further away from making "big" power than a 318, but some of those little 273s were hot in their own right. Or could be made that way. And I sort of figure with about a 114-horse flat six being the original engine, a warmed-over 273 would be a big power upgrade anyway. That stated, I do understand the 318 is more plentiful, as are parts for it, and it has some inherent advantages beyond cubic inches, like the ability to accept stock 360 parts that beef it up at lower cost than aftermarket. Tim: I'll look around a bit for Massey combines, too. Being farm country, they may well be here, but it's also farm-implement-collector-country and some of that sells for ridiculous money. At least, for too much just to buy it for parts. It'd have to be a pretty trashed Massey 92 to be affordable for the engine, I'm afraid.

Another kind offer (the DeSoto Fluid Drive) and sage advice. We've really seemed to sum-up my two favored options in this thread, and neither seems unreasonable. A flathead and Fluid Drive (or later-model transmission) isn't an elusive solution, and as you note 318/auto donor vehicles are everywhere. In fact, two days after I viewed this Windsor I was passing through another town and saw an Aspen wagon beside a trailer house with high weeds and thought, "Wonder if that's a six or a V8!" The 318 or even a 360 route would obviously offer a lot more power, not just for cruising at highway speeds, but for adding that Vintage Air later if I chose. How much welding and fabrication would be involved in the 318/auto solution? I've read threads at other message boards where fellas argue over this point. One guy said to never use the 318, only a 360 or bigger. (What's he building, a gasser?) From his own swap he said the mill would have to be set back three inches into the firewall for proper balance due to its weight and special gussets welded to install different shocks. He said special motor mounts were needed, a rack and pinion from a Chevy Cavalier, you'd even need a 1969 Chevy tilt steering wheel. Plus a rear sump oil pan. "I have done this so believe me, you have to do this or your car will not be worth driving," he wrote. Then another guy arrived to contradict most of that. "The stock 251 weighs in at around 650 LBS, quite a bit more than a 360 so there should be no weight transfer problems due to the swap and no need to knock your firewall back either. Just get the Plydo engine relocation mounts and move it over an inch. If you go with stock exhaust use 360 truck center dumps or A-body forward dump to clear the stock steering box." That sounds WAY easier. So who is closer to right? Also, Harley, where in North Carolina do you reside? I moved back to Oklahoma/Kansas in 2011 after living in Henderson, N.C., since 1998.

Here's the link to that month-old Craiglist ad if you want to check on it.

So there's presently a Fluid Drive transmission on eBay from a 1953 DeSoto Firedome, $350 in Albert Lea, Minn. P.S. Also a month-old Craigslist ad in my general region with a Fluid Drive and a small-block flathead among a $300 lot of parts scavenged from a 1952 Dodge truck that's becoming a street rod. (Long enough ago that might not still be available.) What are the odds one of those transmissions would work or could easily be made to work with the '46-'48 vintage C38 flathead Joe has in Ohio?

Yes, the wheel and the gauges are beautiful. They are what really have a hold on me about this car. These and all the other comments since my last post are both informative and some fantastic news. I checked Craigslist for four states around and found a handful of running cars with Mopar flatheads, plus a couple of rusty old flathead trucks priced at $1,000 and up, but it would be a shame to rob them of their hearts. I found a 1938 flathead from a Dodge pickup, plus a lot of other parts (he apparently went with new running gear and rodded the truck) for $900. Also a guy who has a slew of old car parts -- none of them Mopar flatheads -- but who *thinks* his buddy would sell running a 1928 Victory Six from an eight-years-abandoned project. He's going to check on the price (if it's available) and I'll post it here in case anybody wants it! Of some note, for $1,000 there was a reportedly good-condition 1947 Chrysler marine flathead pretty nearby in Missouri. Some fella planned to put it in his big lake boat but changed his mind. Are the marine flatheads pretty similar to all the others? This local Windsor actually has the original Spitfire head still in the trunk, along with the air cleaner and a couple of other extra/spare parts the seller picked up along the way.

So ... are any of the modern transmissions an easier fit? ... I presume for a flat six a lighter-duty 904 would be enough. I see from some Googling that an overdrive A500 has been used with old flatheads, too. That would help stretch the car's legs a bit for a highway drive.

The seller is no expert, but he was confused by the array of available flathead/trans options through the years. He gave me the impression if the transmission didn't go with that type of engine originally, they were all but impossible to mate. I don't really want to cut a hole in the floor and I do want to retain the factory column shifter if possible, because that whole steering wheel/instrument panel/controls combination looks retro-fantastic. You're the folks who would know, but would an non-Spitfire flathead mate to a more modern Chrysler automatic? Via adapter? Any transmission tunnel or driveshaft mods necessary? ... I presume the factory rear end would be OK because it would be flathead-six power, not 318 or something that would require different gearing.

I just checked car-part.com and there's one salvage yard listing a core/rebuildable 1952 Chrysler Spitfire Six. Called for the price and it was $1,000. They don't have a compatible transmission and a search of that site didn't seem to unearth any, either. I honestly have no idea if the '52 engine would be a drop-in solution, and still wouldn't have a transmission even if it is. Kanter seems to sell a deluxe overhaul kit for about $1,350. ... So that's $2,350 plus the noteworthy cost of shipping an engine block. ... Plus whatever a trans would cost me. Non-Spitfire sixes might readily go into the car and mate up to their appropriate, matching transmissions, so that could be an option. I'm not sure how much cost savings they might be over a Spitfire, or how much performance I might lose. Conversely, from Hot Rod and Popular Hot Rodding magazines (and with aid of mechanical-genius uncles) I can probably build a pretty stout 318 with mostly stock and even salvage Mopar parts for around $1,500. Plus transmission. Plus rear end. Plus potentially some serious welding/fabrication ... so I really would need to bend the ear of anyone who has done a V8-into-Windsor swap before! On the price range question, the less the better, of course. Price being roughly equal (and it may be considering the added costs involved with a swap) I'd go with the Spitfire Six/Fluid Drive. But I'd like to quickly determine the likely range of both options -- near-original vs. V8 swap -- to get an idea of the budget damage before even making an offer on the Windsor itself. (He wants $1,500 but I'm thinking would take less.)