WAGONER aftermarket WT243-8A 3 speed countershaft gear

[3046moparcoupe]

Recently I purchased a super clean Wagoner WT-243-8A Countershaft/Cluster Gear to replace the worn mopar 697823 part in the manual 3 speed of our 46 Plymouth. This completed the list of parts I needed and I'm ready to go  back together with it all, UNTIL TODAY'S DISCOVERY   sigh.............!!

 

I purchased the new Wagoner 3 speed cluster gear from an ebay seller with a 100% rating, (great guy - and he's good with refunding me on the purchase), but we're trying to figure out what's going on with this Wagoner aftermarket replacement part. Anyway - the Mopar number is 697832, the Wagoner number is WT-243-8A.

 

The part looks NOS, super clean, but on the inside bore of the gear I just noticed this today - up inside the bore of the gear, (about an inch or so inside) there are no oil grooves on both ends and the center bore of the gear doesn't reduce down in the middle section of the gear to provide the ridge on both ends necessary to hold the needle bearings in place...so I not seeing how this Wagoner part could work,  looks like the needle bearings would just wash/walk /move around until one moves far enough to get out of the lineup, then your toast ....we're trying to figure out if it's a defect, etc.

 

Only other thing I could possible think of, is if that slightly smaller bore I'm seeing inside the gear, could possible be a .005 thick hardened inner sleeve ?? 

 

Both gears measure 1.005 " on the outermost end of the bore openings.

 

Anyone out there experience anything like this before ??  

 

I've attached 2ea pics that show what I'm trying to describe,. on just a single end of each Cluster gear,  my original (which shows the groove "which I'm thinking is an oil groove" and then immediately to the inside of the groove you see where the bore reduces down to a smaller diameter,....the smaller diameter runs through the entire mid section of the gear, then you have a repeat of the same oil groove and the bore opens up slightly, again on the opposite end of the gear....the reduction in the center looks to be about .0010, and this gives you an edge for your needle bearings to ride/butt up against, while resting inside the gear between the bore of the gear and the spacer tube.

 

Just wondering if among all the experience here on the forum - someone might have run across this before possible....maybe it's just a defect, a mis-labeled gear...just guessing at this point...but again , I don't see how it could work, and WT-243-8A does appear to be the good interchange number for the Mopar 697823.

 

??? 

 

Thanks again

Steve

Edited February 22, 2018 by 3046moparcoupe

[dpollo]

Does the spacer tube in your original gear press out ?  Most of them just slide out.

 

 

[3046moparcoupe]

dpollo, YES - I do have the spacer tube shown on the drawing I attached to this reply (its shown as part #83) and I also attached a pic of it to this reply along with the xmn diagram drwg. It's  a smidge over 4 1/2 inches long...and came out with the needle bearings. What i was originally questioning is in addition to the part #83 spacer. It's actually the way the bore of the original Mopar countershaft gear is cut, in comparison to the way the bore on the wagoner is cut....

 

HOWEVER,...I've got to fess up here, on my original post I was making a BIG error going from my memory only,.....I was thinking that the part #83 spacer shown in the drwg and the attached picture was longer. That it ran the entire length of the bore of the countershaft gear, and that without that additional short inner lip I was seeing up inside the mopar countershaft gear, that the needle bearings would travel and move,....however - now that your reply back - had me go look through my parts at this spacer tube again, I see that it's shorter length serves to not only fill the space between the bore of the countershaft gear and the shaft itself, but it also does serve as a spacer to keep the needle bearings from walking.

 

Oldtimers disease I guess, I apologise - I should have double checked myself, I was sure that the part #83 spacer ran the full length of the countershaft gear bore....I suppose I'll learn the embarrassing way - to go check myself before I start crying wolf - huh ?

 

BUT, after seeing this, and my mistake here,...I went back and double/triple, checked myself,..with my snap gauges and calipers,.....and the bore on the original mopar gear truly does downsize by .0010 ", so there is an additional ridge inside the bore for the bearings to ride on, and there is also "as you can see in the original post pictures" an additional deep groove on each end of this ridge that's about 3/16 inch wide, (gotta be an oil groove to hold oil right where the ends of the needle bearings contact the spacer tube ?)....anyway - none of that's present on the aftermarket Wagoner countershaft gear.

 

I wonder how necessary those two elements are ??  It definitely seems as though it complicated the making of the original part quite a bit,.....if it wasn't required, looks Walter Chrysler wouldn't have included it in the machining of the part..??

 

Again, I was lost as a goose in my thinking when I posted this - so thanks Apollo for bringing me back down to earth here,....but now, loosing that oil groove on each of the bearings where they ride up against the spacer shaft, and also loosing the additional needle bearing support doesn't feel real warm and fuzzy either....

 

At this point, I don't know if anyone out there might possible be able to offer up an example of having used a Wagoner aftermarket countershaft gear, with successfully longevity ?

 

Steve

 

 

[dpollo]

with modern lubricants I do not think there will be any problem.   Here is a trick which will save you a lot of headache.

 

Cut a piece of round shafting....... or a surplus countershaft... to the same length as your cluster plus the spacer washers at each end.

Then you insert this piece and the needles and washers will stay in place as you guide it into the case.  Inserting the countershaft will then

push the  dummy piece out.   This dummy shaft must be slightly smaller in diameter so it will slide through the front hole in the case which

is a tight fit.  Shafts are inserted and removed through the rear facing holes.    A wooden dowel would work as well or better.

[austinsailor]

Or just put them in a bed of grease.

[3046moparcoupe]

thanks dpollo and austinsailor,....Yes, when I watched the Master tech Video's, I picked up on the arbor trick (where old Dutch showed the younger guy to use the tool to hold the needle bearings in place in the countershaft gear),...I happened to mention it to one of the forum members in a conversation, and he told me that 3/4" oak dowel from the hardware store would work perfectly,...(so I've got 2ea slightly different in length already made up and ready to go),...yes Austin Sailor, even Dutch on the Master video recommended using heavy grease to hold the needle bearings into the main pinion shaft, until you could get the retainer clip in place......but I think even he thought it was too much of a juggling act to try and just use the grease alone without the arbor, when your also having to deal with that spacer shaft being in there as well, he (Dutch (did say to put some oil on the bearings to hold them in place, if I remember correctly he said Use some oil, there's not enough room for grease)...anyway - all this was good advice, I appreciate you guys sending it my way......had I not already known it would have been gold to me,....so I appreciate the thought and effort from you both.

 

Dpollo, regarding the modern lubricant comment, my understanding is that I have got to stay with GL1, or I'll have problems with the modern stuff attacking the bronze synchronizers and thrust washers,...so I don't' know if modern GL1 is superior to what they had back then, (which was also rated as GL-1),.....It's possible I suppose,....??

 

I get all bogged up on this stuff, due to lack of real world experience,..drive's the more experienced senior guys here on the forum,..NuTz ...which sure isn't my intent, we're (the good ole USA) loosing folks who have knowledge like this,...folks who can actually make something, and do more than just push a button and read what pops up....

 

It's not a contest in perfection and I'm not trying to build a " nothing but oem parts ", type car.....I just don't wanna make the wrong decision and use the wrong part, that could cause my grief later..... I know I've got issues with having to feel like I did my absolute best ,(due-diligence) , on everything....I just can't sleep and night unless I feel I truly did. 

 

My employers always loved it,..but I guess they we're about the only ones.

 

Maybe George Asche would be good to ask about this,...seems like I've read he has a lot of experience with these transmissions....cause if I'm thinking correctly on this, and I believe I am, that countershaft is always turning,....it never stops,.. no matter what gear, including neutral...seems like a good place to do the right thing, and choose the correct part, if it might make a difference,....maybe not - I know what I need, a giant Mopar crystal ball

 

 

Steve

Edited February 22, 2018 by 3046moparcoupe

[3046moparcoupe]

Trying to due my part in researching this,.......multiple sellers on ebay offering the Wagoner WT243-8A countershaft gear,......none of the auction pictures had good enough pics to see the inner bore, so I wrote the sellers asking about it,......all came back saying the bore was completely smooth like the one I have.....

 

One seller, who strictly sold vintage gears told me, that the countershaft gear I had was NOT an original Mopar part, the he had an original In the box. and that it had a smooth bore just like the Wagoner. Recommended I use the Wagoner, that it was a closer design to the original, and all should be good.....had me feeling positive about this for a few minutes  - (as it seemed he had nothing to gain as he wasn't trying to sell me his Wagoner part),....then about an hour later - I found an ebay seller, with a 100% positive rating, that had a countershaft gear up for auction, listed as an original Mopar 697823, (just like what my P15 parts book shows to be correct), and he had some really good pictures you could zoom in on...

 

Well, low and behold - the one he had for sell,. looks exactly like my old one,....it has the 4ea drilling holes in the flat bottom surface of the large end gear (balance holes I would think). They are the same size and in the same location as on the gear I have,.....also on that same flat surface area on his gear, you can see the dpcd logo stamped into the gear, (that's something mine doesn't have however, mine has the letters E L X D stamped into it ?? (You can see it in the pics above I attached to the original post), don't suppose anyone out there might know what that stands for ??....also when you zoom in on the end shot of the gear, where you can see down the bore, the groove and lip is there....just like the gear that came out of my tranny...?? This seller also had a Chryco box, with the part number 697823 displayed on it, not that a box really confirms anything,....

 

I politely wrote the vintage gear seller back, thanking him for his time and effort, and tried to again "politely" nudge him towards what I had just found that day also on ebay, as described in the previous paragraph,...asked if his oem gear had a part # stamped on it anywhere ? or possible the dpcd logo ? ? ( he wrote me three separate messages the day before, but not a word back yet regarding this now. !!! )

 

I just keep telling myself, the old adage "if this we're easy - everyone would do it" and try to keep moving forward...

 

Steve

 

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by 3046moparcoupe

[dpollo]

I think you are being overcautious......... not that this is always a bad thing......... but given the quality of your original transmission and the replacement parts offered for it, I doubt if there will be any problems.    I first got inside my 40 Plymouth's transmission in 1963.    I had no money for  parts so I put it back together until I found a replacement.   (midnight auto parts)

These transmissions are TOUGH compared to anything the competition had to offer.   In fact, in the ensuing 50+ years, I do not recall ever replacing a cluster gear in a Plymouth.  Usually the only service required was the input shaft bearing and the synchronizer rings.  and it was our duty back then to find the weakness in our cars.

 

Modern 80-90 gear oil will be fine.   Hypoid oils will work too but sometimes cause synchronizer problems. (too slippery )

[3046moparcoupe]

That's kinda why I'm thinking about using the old original cluster gear, instead of this newer Wagoner aftermarket.

 

In my mind, stuff like that oil groove and lip, and having the gear balanced,....the things that Wagoner didn't do,..maybe that's why, these original mopars had a good reputation and history ?? like your describing,.....that's exactly why I'm asking here, ...don't wanna spend money trying to use the better part, and do all the good I can, while I'm in this thing (sharper edged looking gear teeth, no physical signs of wear at all, etc )....

 

but end up actually shooting myself in the foot, and overall downgrading the quality of the tranny -  by doing so.

 

thxs dpollo,

 

Steve