spitfire

Hey everyone, I'm having some trouble with the fluid drive transmission in my '50 Chrysler Windsor. I'll give you the story and a little history on the issue. Brace yourselves, it's a long one. I remember, shortly after purchase, the car had a couple episodes where it didn't want to up shift. I remember turning onto a back road to limp it home and, after letting off the throttle (I was trying to coax it into working), it made a single, hard up shift, and then it would be fine. After rebuilding the generator, replacing the battery, and cleaning the contacts in the voltage regulator, I found that these issues just about vanished, apart from the very occasional no downshift or hard up shift when driving around town. This is very rare and has only happened a few times in the couple years I've owned the car. A few weeks ago, when merging onto the freeway, I had to kick it down to get out in front of somebody. After that, the car wouldn't up shift. I had to pull off to the side of the freeway. Of course, it decided to up shift right when got off onto the side of the interstate. I came to a complete stop and then merged back onto the freeway, once traffic cleared up. The car did a nice, quiet, but solid up shift and I continued on. A few miles later, I left the freeway and came to a stop at a light. When the light turned green, I took off and when my foot let off the accelerator for up shift, the car made an extremely hard up shift with a loud "bang", which shook the whole car. I then could no longer up shift. I was right around the corner from my house, so I got it home and ended up driving it around in the neighborhood to try and see if it would up shift. After lots of attempts, it would up shift, but very late. Maybe when I hit 25, it would finally up shift. I inspected the wiring for the transmission and found that it was in very bad condition, so I ordered a new harness from Rhode Island Wire and installed it. I took it back out on the road and after one mediocre shift, everything was almost perfect. Smooth, quiet shifts, seemed just a little bit late though, still. The next day I used it to run some errands, but later in the day, while on the freeway, it decided to downshift while doing close to 60 mph. I'm lucky it didn't seem to do any damage to the 95K mile original flathead. I got off the freeway and limped it home, as it would no longer even attempt to up shift. It seems to me that I checked the fluid level in the fluid coupling just a few thousand miles ago and it was right up to the filler hole. I haven't seen any new stains under the car. I haven't ever changed the fluid out, however I've been meaning to with ISO 32 hydraulic fluid. I believe that was the closest thing to the original ISO 22 that you could readily obtain from a local store. Do any of you know what could cause this no up shift condition? Could it be a solenoid or governor issue? It seems to be intermittent, so I would think (hope) that it's nothing internal. Thanks for reading this long post, Dan

Now, I have a question on the guides (bear with me here).... I found that Rock Auto and other retailers sell valve guides made by "Sealed Power", a Federal Mogul company. Rock Auto states that the Intake guides are 0.3425" ID, while the exhaust guides are .3445" ID. However, the service manual states that the guide inside diameter "ream installed" is .3425" to .3435" for both intake and exhaust, which would mean that the exhaust valve that Rock Auto lists is .001 out of tolerance. I am a cnc machinist by trade and some of the parts I make are medical, where a thousandths might be unacceptable, however, I don't know if it will make a difference on an old flathead. That's half the width of a piece of paper. Would the ones that Andy Bernbaum or Roberts sell be any different? Do they compress enough once installed to be within tolerance? Seems like a bit too much to me. The next question I have is are the guides themselves actually any different, intake from exhaust, other than the fact that the intake valves are installed counter bore down? Also, could you freeze the new guides to make them contract and install easier? Do I need to ream the guides to size once installed? How would I do that? I can’t imagine that reamer and an electric drill would be acceptable for anything within an engine…. Sorry for all the questions guys, but I really appreciate all the help, Dan

Ah, ok. Just curious if there are any on here that live in this area. There is a guy that seems to live here in town with a beautiful '48 or so Chrysler Windsor. I've yet to talk to him. I'm sure he's seen my car, but I'm probably just the scabby looking kid in the spot-primed '50 with a noisy speedometer cable haha. Take a look at gauge #8. That describes exactly what I remember seeing when I did the vacuum gauge test. I guess that just about confirms it....

Thanks for the info, that's interesting. Whenever mine misses though, or "coughs" (as I put it), it takes the dollar bill in with it, which tells me that for a split second, something is allowing a vacuum effect to take place in the tail pipe. The only thing I could think of would be something in the valve train. If it wasn't doing that, I would think it would be something electrical. Maybe I'm way off base here. I haven't paid enough attention to the distributor, though. I think I will pick up a vacuum gauge (borrowed the last one) and read it again, paying closer attention. However, I'm 90% sure the car needs valve guides, so it may get a valve job anyway. Btw, Tod, generally speaking, where are you in the SF Bay Area?

Hey Don, thanks for your help. That would make sense. The car usually billows smoke coming off the freeway, right about the time I hit 40 mph or so. I adjusted them with the engine at operating temperature, factory service manual specified .008 for intake and .01 for exhaust. I think I may have set them for .009 and .011. I read that a little too much clearance is better than too little. The miss was there before the adjustment. Interesting. The high vacuum of deceleration causes oil to be pulled up through the guides and into the combustion chambers, correct? This reminds me of one thing I failed to mention last night. It doesn't miss with every revolution. It will make a few revolutions and then "cough" once or twice. Rev-rev-rev-rev-miss-rev-rev-miss-miss-rev-rev-rev etc. I've had a car with a badly bent valve and it missed with every revolution. Maybe that's a sign that it's really bad guides and not necessarily a burnt valve. Thanks, Dan

Austinsailor, sorry for not being more clear. I guess it's been a long day . The second test was after it started missing. I didn't see any numbers lower than 105, which is why I had trouble telling which cylinder was the problem cylinder. I always thought if any had an issue, it was cylinder number 3, as it originally had the lowest compression out of the six. It has always missed at idle a little, as long as I've owned it. What I thought was peculiar was that 12456 all had 110 psi even and 3 had 100 when I first checked it, at time of purchase. After I did the head gasket, it kind of went all over the place. 1,2, and 6 all went up, while 3, 4, and 5 lost compression. That makes me think that either the rings seated and revealed that some cylinders have better compression than the others, or that maybe I did something wrong when I reinstalled the head. Everything is ridiculous here. I thought 4 grand was pretty high for a rebuild on this motor, then again I've never rebuilt one and I don't know what it involves. This includes disassembly, full machine work, parts, and reassemble. I wouldn't mind getting out of here, though. This leads me to another question. Would it be worth it to do the extra work and do a full valve grind? A shop told me that they would grind all twelve valves for about $20 and I figure I could lap the seats. A full Felpro top end gasket kit from rock auto is around $36 or so. I originally wanted to do a full valve job, as I thought my guides needed replacing as well (smoke upon high-speed deceleration), but since I cleaned the valve galley, I haven't actually noticed any smoke. So, assuming I don't have to replace the guides, I could do all of the valves for an extra $20. Is it a whole lot more work? If I can make the motor a little happier for the rest of it's life, maybe even extend it's life a little, I may be willing to do the extra work. Thanks, Dan

Hey Adam, thanks as well. I didn't do a wet test, but I do remember attaching a vacuum gauge to it at one time and finding that the needle vibrated very rapidly a small amount. I remember the vibration moving within one or two inches of mercury, very fast. The valve covers did have plenty of goop blocking up drain holes and I did my best to clean everything out. As for the state of the tune, everything is maybe 6K miles old. Plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, points, carb rebuild, and the timing was correct. Seems the car has always done this to an extent, but it seems to have become worse as time goes on. I'm not doubting that the rings/cylinder walls have plenty of wear at 94,500 miles, but being it doesn't blow a bunch of smoke, runs quite well when driving around town or at 55, and carrys 54 or so psi oil pressure at high speeds (20-25 at idle while in gear), I figure I can get around for a while longer without a rebuild, as long as it doesn't start knocking. Plus, I don't have 3-4K for a rebuild at the moment, which is what I've been quoted. The dollar bill test just kind of told me that possibly the valves are the biggest culprit, which is something that I could do for now. I'm no expert though, so that's why I turn to you guys . Thanks again, Dan

Thanks, austinsailor. So, if I re-do the compression test, the cylinder with the lowest number would be the one with the biggest issue. I think that was still no. 3. I just want to make sure that it's a valve before I take apart the whole top end for a valve job. Thanks, Dan

Hey everyone, my 50 Windsor may have a burnt exhaust valve. It has new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, points, condenser, etc. The car actually runs good when cruising or accelerating, but has a rough idle and you can hear a miss in the exhaust. I don't know if anyone here has heard of this test, as many haven't, but I read about a trick where you hold a dollar bill or a small piece of paper over the exhaust pipe, at the outlet, and see if it tries to suck it in. Mine does, I get a few puffs and then it snaps the paper right into the pipe. I did adjust the valves, which didn't solve it. Do these symptoms sound like a burnt valve? Is there a sure way to find out which cylinder it's on, apart from a leak down test? I usually rent tools like that, but no one has one to rent around here, and I don't really need to have one on hand. I did a compression test when I purchased the car and found that all were at 110, except for number 3, which was at 100. The car had maybe 20 miles on it since it was out of a 40+ year storage at the time of that test. The car had a visibly leaky head gasket, so I went ahead and replaced it. I didn't notice any warpage of the head at the time. Now, I forgot the exact numbers of the last recent (about 5K miles later) compression test, but the funny part was the way they were varied. Cylinder 1 had around 117, 2 had maybe 115, 3 had 105ish, 4 was around the same, 5 had maybe 110, and 6 had about 115 again. I remember the test making me thing maybe the head was warped or not properly torqued. I used the same tester for both tests. I was kind of curious about what your opinions are. I'd be willing to do the head gasket over again, however I don't want to pull it again if it needs a valve too. I'd rather do everything at once. Any suggestions on what the issue could be? Thanks, Dan

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/cto/3206586410.html Everything seems more expensive here in California. If you can find a 1950s and prior car that runs and doesn't have any cancer for in the 3-4K range, you have done well. Notice I said runs, not runs well. If the interior is in decent shape as well, it seems you have just about scored. Of course, there are exceptions. I looked for quite a while and it was almost impossible. I looked at a 1950 Pontiac Chieftain. The body had rust, the floors were almost rusted through, the interior looked as if it had a family of cats inhabiting it, and the supposed "rebuilt" straight 8 wouldn't run for more than 10 seconds. He said he had 10K invested (yeah right), and he wanted $3,200. $5,000 for that 1949 is an absolute steal here. Here in "wine country", you can spend $750-$900 per month just to rent a tiny studio apartment. $600 if you don't mind the risk of being attacked or robbed at night. I don't really understand why the old flathead Mopar cars don't bring in what the Fords and Chevys do either. I guess not as many people are interested in these cars. I've been to one car show with mine, and I was really proud to have the only flathead 6 Chrysler there. Out of maybe 100 cars, there were two other flathead 6 Mopar cars there, a 1949 Plymouth and a 1948 or so Desoto. Usually there aren't any. Everyone has tri-five Chevys. Why not be different? Dan

Thanks a bunch, everyone. That all really, really helps. Sorry it took me a day to get back. If I have the time this weekend, I may go ahead and attempt to grind a couple down. Might as well try. I think I have an assortment of "clearance bin" wrenches that I wouldn't mind ruining...I mean....modifying. I even have the bench grinder with a couple of crummy wheels that need some finishing off. If that doesn't work, I'll try ebay or McMaster-Carr. I have a pair of arc welding gloves from welding class a few semesters back. A long sleeve flannel and those gloves should at least help with burns. I'd like to clean out the valve galley and then pull the oil pan and clean it out as well, so I can start running rotella, plus have the peace of mind of a clean engine. If I take care of it, I'm curious as to how long it will last. Thanks so much for the help and I'll try and let you guys know what I find. Dan

Hey everyone, I know this is the kind of question only someone like me would ask, being I've never had another car that needed valve adjustments, but I have a quick question. My '50 Windsor seems to have a valve that's either out of adjustment or burned (probably burned). I did the test where you take a piece of paper and hold it over the tail pipe and see if it sucks the paper in. It does. Usually that's a sign of a bad exhaust valve? The car has a miss at idle and always has. Plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, and coil have all been replaced. When I purchased it around 5K miles ago, it had 110 psi compression in all cylinders, except for #3, which had 100. The car currently has around 93K miles on it. I mentioned the issue to my boss, and being he remembers these flatheads, he says I need to try a valve adjustment, before I go off pulling things apart. I've read the tech tips write up on it and looked in my service manual, so I think I know what I need to do, but my question is: Do I need to buy a set of tappet wrenches somewhere? If so, what sizes do I need? Not sure if I need two of the same size or not. Does anyone know a good place to purchase these? Craftsman had a set, but they don't seem to carry them anymore (not available for delivery). Most the wrenches I see are in sets that are around $150 or more, which seems a bit excessive for 5 wrenches that I'll use for only this every few years. Thank you for your help, Dan

Completely OT, but I turned 21 today and had my first drink at a bar. I guess that's one of the last "milestones" that come with age (apart from being old enough to rent a car or be considered a senior citizen haha!). Dodgeb4ya, that pretty much sums it all up. The only people who I see really making money off this hobby are the ones that restore cars for clients, not for themselves. Darren, I agree with you. One of the reasons why I'm putting the money into preserving this car is because my budget isn't large enough to purchase a nice, newer, used vehicle for the price that I could totally cherry out this one. I feel like I'm letting it deteriorate by letting it leak and rust. I've tried to find a used vehicle for under 6K that's worthwhile many times. I even test drove what seemed to be a decent vehicle from a lot just a couple weeks ago. It had been raining hard just the day before. The car drove perfect, but the back floor looked a little wet. When depressing the carpet, a small lake appeared to form (about 1" deep). That's what I want to get into. The truth is, the Chrysler is the one vehicle I've purchased that hasn't needed extremely significant mechanical repairs. It's the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned, and it's 62 years old! Last tank it even got 16 mpg average. What a car. Hell, the bike developed 2nd gear issues in the short time I owned it, and no, I didn't beat up 2nd gear. That was gonna cost some bucks... Anyway, one thing's for certain. They sure don't make them like they use to. Dan

Seems to me that's what most people do... I don't know what these are worth where you live, but where I live, you can't find a car like mine in it's present condition for 3K that runs with good compression, has no rust in the floors, and has mint seats.

Got another question for you guys. I'm looking to purchase new window sweeper and possibly channel for the car, as all that is in pretty poor shape. I saw that Burnbaum carries those parts, but they offer a chrome beaded one. Did my car have chrome beaded window sweaper and channel stock? How do I tell? Sorry for my ignorance. The window channel is a little rusty looking, so I don't know if it was chromed at one time or not. Thanks, Dan

Figured it might have involved a "rat".

I could definitely see that. There's a reason why they can paint a car for under $300. When they painted my old Cadillac, they used Dupont's Nason line. As I recall, our Maaco uses our local automotive paint shop to match and mix colors, and Nason is the bottom of the line, cheapest paint you can purchase there. Of course! I mentioned that I lived right around the corner from the shop and the estimator invited me to come in and check on the car's progress as they move along on it. I'll take pics while I'm there to show you guys. I think it'll be a real shock to see it chrome-less and down to bare metal! I'm pretty excited. Next, bye-bye moldy carpet... Dan

What material are these headliners even made of? Sorry I'm not of more help. I think blood is water-soluble, so something mild, unless you're trying to get rid of the evidence....

Ok, so I got an estimate from Maaco in between doctor appointments today and I thought I'd give an update. Maaco will strip the car to bare metal, repair the few dents, realign the hood, do a base and clear coat job, do a final sand and polish, and install all four vent window rubber pieces (I bring it to them) for a little under $4,500. They had a late 40s or early 50s Chevrolet truck in there that they had almost finished painting which looked beautiful, along with a early 50s Chevy two door that was in the process. They said that they've geared their shop around classics a bit and doing work that other shops don't want. They said they would charge me a few more hours of work if I wanted to have them install the door rubber (I hate doing that ). I was pretty impressed with the work I saw in the shop. However, I decided to go back to the body shop around the corner and ask them what they planned to do to the car for their 4-5K quote. They will also strip the car and do the same as Maaco for that 4-5K. They sounded like they knew what they were doing a bit more to me. They can give me that quote and the warranty in writing. He said that even if in 15 years the paint starts to check and look bad, they will repaint the car for free. They use PPG paints. I'd never heard of them, but my dad being a painter (house) said that they've been around forever. This shop seems to have a pretty good name around here. So, being that they seem to plan to do it right, stand behind their work, and because they are about 1 mile from my house, I think I'm going to give them the job. Any opinions are appreciated. I know that I need to replace a few rubber grommets, seals, and a couple other things to make it right. So far on my list, I have this: Bumper grommets Chrome bumper bolts (mine are rusty) Fuel neck grommet Back-up light rubber (the other seals for the lights looked to all be in good shape) Vent window rubber Window channel and sweeper Cowl lacing Rear of vent window vertical channel Is there anything else I should get? The glass will not be removed, so I shouldn't have to fool with seals for it. Is the vent window rubber from Roberts or Burnbaum ok to use, or must I go with steele? Thanks again everyone. I'd screw something up without your help. Dan

I worry about this myself sometimes. I had a 1980 Cadillac Eldorado painted at our local Maaco a few years back. The paint on the hood has started to bubble, and I think part of the reason is because it wasn't stripped, and that car had a led based paint on it (I think). My dad and I prepped that car ourselves and I bought the middle of the road single stage job they offered and it has actually held up well for a $500 job. I'm happy with it, for the most part. However, because we prepped the car, they wouldn't give us any warranty. I have three friends (plus myself) who have used our local Maaco. They did a good job on all of them. One friend had his 1992 Deville painted there and he bought their top of the line clear-coat job and brought in his own primer. That car sat in the sun, untouched, unwashed, uncovered, for what seemed like a few years, and that job still looked good after all that. Hey Darren, yup, had a decent motorcycle accident. Sorry to hear you got to experience one as well. I got to keep my leg, mainly because my fam and I whined enough. It was pretty much destroyed and it took 10 operations to save it. I spent two months on bed rest in the hospital and basically another month at home in a hospital bed. It still probably won't work right 50 years from now. I'll shut up about it now, before people get tired of hearing about it . I have a few issues with stripping the car myself. When I'm able to do that, I hope to be back to work at my job, so I won't have the time. I also need the car, as it's currently my running vehicle, so I can't have it tied up for a couple plus months while I strip it in my free time (yes, I'm that slow ). Also, this will seem dumb, but if someone reports me stripping my car in front of our house in our subdivision, it can mean serious business. This area is really strange about led paints, chemicals, and disposal. If there's a storm drain within a 1/4 mile, watch out! I think more than anything though, I'm afraid of doing cosmetic work on this car. Don't know why, as it's in pretty decent shape, so it would probably be much easier than a basket-case. I figured that if they can give me a true warranty like they say, then maybe taking a couple chances with just sanding the car would be worth it. Although, maybe I'm just opening another can of worms. I was looking over Maaco's website. They do offer stripping of vehicles. Because I've had a few good examples of their work (including one of my own), I wonder how much it would be if I removed the trim, but had them strip the vehicle, fix a few dents, and paint it with their best job? I wonder if I had them strip the car, maybe having them do the prep would be ok? I think after my PT appointment, I'll take the car over to Maaco and see what they say (doesn't hurt), and then take the car back to the auto body shop and become clear on everything they plan to do, from start to finish. I think even Maaco offers a 7 year warranty or something on their clear coat jobs, or at least they use to. I kind of expected a minimum of 4-5K price range, which is the top of my budget, so I just want to get the best I can for what I can afford. I'll make sure to report in with anything I find. I really appreciate all the help you guys are giving me. I'm still pretty new to all this. You guys are the veterans . Dan Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention. Most of the cars parked out front of the local Maaco are various classics from the early 50s-mid 60s. The freshly painted ones still awaiting reassembly are gorgeous....

I agree, there should be something fairly close. The local automotive paint shop will do an eye-match, but I've used them before, only to receive a completely different color than I wanted matched...any way, I guess a good body shop could sort it out. Thank you for that info. All helps. I'll look up superior blue as well. I got another quote from a body shop that has done most of our auto body repair work in the past. He said it would be 10-20K at his shop . He wants to tear the whole car apart and basically do a restoration. Other than that, he won't touch it. The car really doesn't need that. You can pull up the carpets and you won't find any rust. It was in a barn out of the weather for over 40 years. I'm going to check out a couple other places, but it looks like the first shop is going to be my choice, as long as I can get a quote in writing. If it looks good and they stand by it, I'm happy. Dan

Thanks! I'm healing up nicely, it just takes a while. The paint isn't in as bad of shape as some, but that is a cell phone pic and it doesn't show what you see in person. Plus, it only shows two sides of the car. For example, fuel leaked out from the cap in the past when I had it parked in the drive way and "krinkled" the paint on the rear quarter. Haha, I'm doubting that they will, but I won't be either! They have 6 or 7 shops, so hopefully they will still be around when it comes time for the next paint job... Edit: Dodgeb4ya, didn't you restore that car? You did a fantastic job. A ten year warranty is more than most give, or at least I'd imagine. Was the body portion of the car done in haze blue and the roof in racine blue, or were those non-stock colors?

Now that I'm out of the hospital, and moving around on crutches, I'm back to doing what I can with the Chrysler. I rebuilt the fuel pump today and my father helped me install it. I got a settlement for my bike, so now I'm thinking about using that to prepare the Chrysler to be my daily driver (and make her pretty ). It was my daily driver for a while before the bike, and surprisingly enough, it was the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned. We were planning on removing and installing 95% of the trim ourselves and having the shop do the rest. The car has zero cancer and just a few spots of surface rust. The paint on the hood is thin and I can see the primer through it, there is primer on the driver side rear quarter, driver side fender, on the roof gutters, around the trunk, on the hood, etc. I've attached a few pictures of the car in its current condition. It looks a little better in pictures. To me, the closest color I can find that was originally used in 1950 on Chryslers was "Haze Blue". Does this sound correct? Is anyone here familiar with the colors of 1950 Mopar cars or does anyone know where I can find a paint code location? I do realize that they may not be able to completely match the color, as today’s paints are "environmentally safer" than the old paints. I'm going to get another quote tomorrow, but so far I only have one quote from a local large body shop, which was 4-5K, assuming I remove the trim. This company's paint jobs come with a warranty that lasts 100 years, or as long as you own the car. In 20 years, if it starts to look faded, they will repaint the car for free. They are a pretty well known shop around these parts and I've heard many good things. I've had Maaco paint a car for me, and it was good for a $500 job, but I'm looking for something better for this car. I also did the prep on the Maaco job, but in my condition, I won't even be able to sand a whole car for quite a while (nor do I really want to prep this car). In your guys opinions, should I be able to get a decent paint job for a driver in the 4-5K range? I'm not looking for a concourse car paint job, but a good, strong paint job that will last, as the car is always out doors (covered when not used). I want to preserve the car the best I can at the moment. Basically, I'm kind of looking for any suggestions you guys might have on anything I should do, request, etc. Thanks in advance, Dan

Thanks for all the great suggestions, everyone. Greg, your interior looks beautiful. Im sorry I haven't gotten back to all of you, I've been in the icu, three surgeries later, for the motorcycle crash. Ill review the posts more thoroughly and get back to you when I have access to a computer (im on my phone). Thanks everyone, Dan

Hey everyone. Not intending to clutter the forum with my topics, but as I sit here with nothing to do, I have lots of time to think about what I want to do with the Chrysler lol. My car has seat covers that have been on for the life of the car. The seats haven't been exposed since after it left the showroom floor (from what I was told). The covers are starting to rip, now that the car has left it's 40 plus year barn slumber and is being used. The seats underneath appear to be nice, but what I can see is limited. Assuming the seats are in good shape after the covers are actually removed, I'd like to keep the seats covered with new covers. I saw that Kanter sells Mohair seat fabric kits, ready to go. Has anyone used these as seat covers? I kind of figured that they would look fairly accurate to what is underneath. Also, if I uncover the seats and find trashed fabric, I could just use the kit as intended. Kanter says that they have heard of people doing this, but they can't assure me it would work. I'm nervous about finding out they won't work after spending that kind of money. I'm not looking for something to hold back water, just something to protect against contact and sun light. Dan