spitfire

Hey everyone, I'm having some trouble with the fluid drive transmission in my '50 Chrysler Windsor. I'll give you the story and a little history on the issue. Brace yourselves, it's a long one. I remember, shortly after purchase, the car had a couple episodes where it didn't want to up shift. I remember turning onto a back road to limp it home and, after letting off the throttle (I was trying to coax it into working), it made a single, hard up shift, and then it would be fine. After rebuilding the generator, replacing the battery, and cleaning the contacts in the voltage regulator, I found that these issues just about vanished, apart from the very occasional no downshift or hard up shift when driving around town. This is very rare and has only happened a few times in the couple years I've owned the car. A few weeks ago, when merging onto the freeway, I had to kick it down to get out in front of somebody. After that, the car wouldn't up shift. I had to pull off to the side of the freeway. Of course, it decided to up shift right when got off onto the side of the interstate. I came to a complete stop and then merged back onto the freeway, once traffic cleared up. The car did a nice, quiet, but solid up shift and I continued on. A few miles later, I left the freeway and came to a stop at a light. When the light turned green, I took off and when my foot let off the accelerator for up shift, the car made an extremely hard up shift with a loud "bang", which shook the whole car. I then could no longer up shift. I was right around the corner from my house, so I got it home and ended up driving it around in the neighborhood to try and see if it would up shift. After lots of attempts, it would up shift, but very late. Maybe when I hit 25, it would finally up shift. I inspected the wiring for the transmission and found that it was in very bad condition, so I ordered a new harness from Rhode Island Wire and installed it. I took it back out on the road and after one mediocre shift, everything was almost perfect. Smooth, quiet shifts, seemed just a little bit late though, still. The next day I used it to run some errands, but later in the day, while on the freeway, it decided to downshift while doing close to 60 mph. I'm lucky it didn't seem to do any damage to the 95K mile original flathead. I got off the freeway and limped it home, as it would no longer even attempt to up shift. It seems to me that I checked the fluid level in the fluid coupling just a few thousand miles ago and it was right up to the filler hole. I haven't seen any new stains under the car. I haven't ever changed the fluid out, however I've been meaning to with ISO 32 hydraulic fluid. I believe that was the closest thing to the original ISO 22 that you could readily obtain from a local store. Do any of you know what could cause this no up shift condition? Could it be a solenoid or governor issue? It seems to be intermittent, so I would think (hope) that it's nothing internal. Thanks for reading this long post, Dan

Now, I have a question on the guides (bear with me here).... I found that Rock Auto and other retailers sell valve guides made by "Sealed Power", a Federal Mogul company. Rock Auto states that the Intake guides are 0.3425" ID, while the exhaust guides are .3445" ID. However, the service manual states that the guide inside diameter "ream installed" is .3425" to .3435" for both intake and exhaust, which would mean that the exhaust valve that Rock Auto lists is .001 out of tolerance. I am a cnc machinist by trade and some of the parts I make are medical, where a thousandths might be unacceptable, however, I don't know if it will make a difference on an old flathead. That's half the width of a piece of paper. Would the ones that Andy Bernbaum or Roberts sell be any different? Do they compress enough once installed to be within tolerance? Seems like a bit too much to me. The next question I have is are the guides themselves actually any different, intake from exhaust, other than the fact that the intake valves are installed counter bore down? Also, could you freeze the new guides to make them contract and install easier? Do I need to ream the guides to size once installed? How would I do that? I can’t imagine that reamer and an electric drill would be acceptable for anything within an engine…. Sorry for all the questions guys, but I really appreciate all the help, Dan

Ah, ok. Just curious if there are any on here that live in this area. There is a guy that seems to live here in town with a beautiful '48 or so Chrysler Windsor. I've yet to talk to him. I'm sure he's seen my car, but I'm probably just the scabby looking kid in the spot-primed '50 with a noisy speedometer cable haha. Take a look at gauge #8. That describes exactly what I remember seeing when I did the vacuum gauge test. I guess that just about confirms it....

Thanks for the info, that's interesting. Whenever mine misses though, or "coughs" (as I put it), it takes the dollar bill in with it, which tells me that for a split second, something is allowing a vacuum effect to take place in the tail pipe. The only thing I could think of would be something in the valve train. If it wasn't doing that, I would think it would be something electrical. Maybe I'm way off base here. I haven't paid enough attention to the distributor, though. I think I will pick up a vacuum gauge (borrowed the last one) and read it again, paying closer attention. However, I'm 90% sure the car needs valve guides, so it may get a valve job anyway. Btw, Tod, generally speaking, where are you in the SF Bay Area?

Hey Don, thanks for your help. That would make sense. The car usually billows smoke coming off the freeway, right about the time I hit 40 mph or so. I adjusted them with the engine at operating temperature, factory service manual specified .008 for intake and .01 for exhaust. I think I may have set them for .009 and .011. I read that a little too much clearance is better than too little. The miss was there before the adjustment. Interesting. The high vacuum of deceleration causes oil to be pulled up through the guides and into the combustion chambers, correct? This reminds me of one thing I failed to mention last night. It doesn't miss with every revolution. It will make a few revolutions and then "cough" once or twice. Rev-rev-rev-rev-miss-rev-rev-miss-miss-rev-rev-rev etc. I've had a car with a badly bent valve and it missed with every revolution. Maybe that's a sign that it's really bad guides and not necessarily a burnt valve. Thanks, Dan

Austinsailor, sorry for not being more clear. I guess it's been a long day . The second test was after it started missing. I didn't see any numbers lower than 105, which is why I had trouble telling which cylinder was the problem cylinder. I always thought if any had an issue, it was cylinder number 3, as it originally had the lowest compression out of the six. It has always missed at idle a little, as long as I've owned it. What I thought was peculiar was that 12456 all had 110 psi even and 3 had 100 when I first checked it, at time of purchase. After I did the head gasket, it kind of went all over the place. 1,2, and 6 all went up, while 3, 4, and 5 lost compression. That makes me think that either the rings seated and revealed that some cylinders have better compression than the others, or that maybe I did something wrong when I reinstalled the head. Everything is ridiculous here. I thought 4 grand was pretty high for a rebuild on this motor, then again I've never rebuilt one and I don't know what it involves. This includes disassembly, full machine work, parts, and reassemble. I wouldn't mind getting out of here, though. This leads me to another question. Would it be worth it to do the extra work and do a full valve grind? A shop told me that they would grind all twelve valves for about $20 and I figure I could lap the seats. A full Felpro top end gasket kit from rock auto is around $36 or so. I originally wanted to do a full valve job, as I thought my guides needed replacing as well (smoke upon high-speed deceleration), but since I cleaned the valve galley, I haven't actually noticed any smoke. So, assuming I don't have to replace the guides, I could do all of the valves for an extra $20. Is it a whole lot more work? If I can make the motor a little happier for the rest of it's life, maybe even extend it's life a little, I may be willing to do the extra work. Thanks, Dan

Hey Adam, thanks as well. I didn't do a wet test, but I do remember attaching a vacuum gauge to it at one time and finding that the needle vibrated very rapidly a small amount. I remember the vibration moving within one or two inches of mercury, very fast. The valve covers did have plenty of goop blocking up drain holes and I did my best to clean everything out. As for the state of the tune, everything is maybe 6K miles old. Plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, points, carb rebuild, and the timing was correct. Seems the car has always done this to an extent, but it seems to have become worse as time goes on. I'm not doubting that the rings/cylinder walls have plenty of wear at 94,500 miles, but being it doesn't blow a bunch of smoke, runs quite well when driving around town or at 55, and carrys 54 or so psi oil pressure at high speeds (20-25 at idle while in gear), I figure I can get around for a while longer without a rebuild, as long as it doesn't start knocking. Plus, I don't have 3-4K for a rebuild at the moment, which is what I've been quoted. The dollar bill test just kind of told me that possibly the valves are the biggest culprit, which is something that I could do for now. I'm no expert though, so that's why I turn to you guys . Thanks again, Dan

Thanks, austinsailor. So, if I re-do the compression test, the cylinder with the lowest number would be the one with the biggest issue. I think that was still no. 3. I just want to make sure that it's a valve before I take apart the whole top end for a valve job. Thanks, Dan

Hey everyone, my 50 Windsor may have a burnt exhaust valve. It has new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, points, condenser, etc. The car actually runs good when cruising or accelerating, but has a rough idle and you can hear a miss in the exhaust. I don't know if anyone here has heard of this test, as many haven't, but I read about a trick where you hold a dollar bill or a small piece of paper over the exhaust pipe, at the outlet, and see if it tries to suck it in. Mine does, I get a few puffs and then it snaps the paper right into the pipe. I did adjust the valves, which didn't solve it. Do these symptoms sound like a burnt valve? Is there a sure way to find out which cylinder it's on, apart from a leak down test? I usually rent tools like that, but no one has one to rent around here, and I don't really need to have one on hand. I did a compression test when I purchased the car and found that all were at 110, except for number 3, which was at 100. The car had maybe 20 miles on it since it was out of a 40+ year storage at the time of that test. The car had a visibly leaky head gasket, so I went ahead and replaced it. I didn't notice any warpage of the head at the time. Now, I forgot the exact numbers of the last recent (about 5K miles later) compression test, but the funny part was the way they were varied. Cylinder 1 had around 117, 2 had maybe 115, 3 had 105ish, 4 was around the same, 5 had maybe 110, and 6 had about 115 again. I remember the test making me thing maybe the head was warped or not properly torqued. I used the same tester for both tests. I was kind of curious about what your opinions are. I'd be willing to do the head gasket over again, however I don't want to pull it again if it needs a valve too. I'd rather do everything at once. Any suggestions on what the issue could be? Thanks, Dan

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/cto/3206586410.html Everything seems more expensive here in California. If you can find a 1950s and prior car that runs and doesn't have any cancer for in the 3-4K range, you have done well. Notice I said runs, not runs well. If the interior is in decent shape as well, it seems you have just about scored. Of course, there are exceptions. I looked for quite a while and it was almost impossible. I looked at a 1950 Pontiac Chieftain. The body had rust, the floors were almost rusted through, the interior looked as if it had a family of cats inhabiting it, and the supposed "rebuilt" straight 8 wouldn't run for more than 10 seconds. He said he had 10K invested (yeah right), and he wanted $3,200. $5,000 for that 1949 is an absolute steal here. Here in "wine country", you can spend $750-$900 per month just to rent a tiny studio apartment. $600 if you don't mind the risk of being attacked or robbed at night. I don't really understand why the old flathead Mopar cars don't bring in what the Fords and Chevys do either. I guess not as many people are interested in these cars. I've been to one car show with mine, and I was really proud to have the only flathead 6 Chrysler there. Out of maybe 100 cars, there were two other flathead 6 Mopar cars there, a 1949 Plymouth and a 1948 or so Desoto. Usually there aren't any. Everyone has tri-five Chevys. Why not be different? Dan

Thanks a bunch, everyone. That all really, really helps. Sorry it took me a day to get back. If I have the time this weekend, I may go ahead and attempt to grind a couple down. Might as well try. I think I have an assortment of "clearance bin" wrenches that I wouldn't mind ruining...I mean....modifying. I even have the bench grinder with a couple of crummy wheels that need some finishing off. If that doesn't work, I'll try ebay or McMaster-Carr. I have a pair of arc welding gloves from welding class a few semesters back. A long sleeve flannel and those gloves should at least help with burns. I'd like to clean out the valve galley and then pull the oil pan and clean it out as well, so I can start running rotella, plus have the peace of mind of a clean engine. If I take care of it, I'm curious as to how long it will last. Thanks so much for the help and I'll try and let you guys know what I find. Dan

Hey everyone, I know this is the kind of question only someone like me would ask, being I've never had another car that needed valve adjustments, but I have a quick question. My '50 Windsor seems to have a valve that's either out of adjustment or burned (probably burned). I did the test where you take a piece of paper and hold it over the tail pipe and see if it sucks the paper in. It does. Usually that's a sign of a bad exhaust valve? The car has a miss at idle and always has. Plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, and coil have all been replaced. When I purchased it around 5K miles ago, it had 110 psi compression in all cylinders, except for #3, which had 100. The car currently has around 93K miles on it. I mentioned the issue to my boss, and being he remembers these flatheads, he says I need to try a valve adjustment, before I go off pulling things apart. I've read the tech tips write up on it and looked in my service manual, so I think I know what I need to do, but my question is: Do I need to buy a set of tappet wrenches somewhere? If so, what sizes do I need? Not sure if I need two of the same size or not. Does anyone know a good place to purchase these? Craftsman had a set, but they don't seem to carry them anymore (not available for delivery). Most the wrenches I see are in sets that are around $150 or more, which seems a bit excessive for 5 wrenches that I'll use for only this every few years. Thank you for your help, Dan

Completely OT, but I turned 21 today and had my first drink at a bar. I guess that's one of the last "milestones" that come with age (apart from being old enough to rent a car or be considered a senior citizen haha!). Dodgeb4ya, that pretty much sums it all up. The only people who I see really making money off this hobby are the ones that restore cars for clients, not for themselves. Darren, I agree with you. One of the reasons why I'm putting the money into preserving this car is because my budget isn't large enough to purchase a nice, newer, used vehicle for the price that I could totally cherry out this one. I feel like I'm letting it deteriorate by letting it leak and rust. I've tried to find a used vehicle for under 6K that's worthwhile many times. I even test drove what seemed to be a decent vehicle from a lot just a couple weeks ago. It had been raining hard just the day before. The car drove perfect, but the back floor looked a little wet. When depressing the carpet, a small lake appeared to form (about 1" deep). That's what I want to get into. The truth is, the Chrysler is the one vehicle I've purchased that hasn't needed extremely significant mechanical repairs. It's the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned, and it's 62 years old! Last tank it even got 16 mpg average. What a car. Hell, the bike developed 2nd gear issues in the short time I owned it, and no, I didn't beat up 2nd gear. That was gonna cost some bucks... Anyway, one thing's for certain. They sure don't make them like they use to. Dan

Seems to me that's what most people do... I don't know what these are worth where you live, but where I live, you can't find a car like mine in it's present condition for 3K that runs with good compression, has no rust in the floors, and has mint seats.

Got another question for you guys. I'm looking to purchase new window sweeper and possibly channel for the car, as all that is in pretty poor shape. I saw that Burnbaum carries those parts, but they offer a chrome beaded one. Did my car have chrome beaded window sweaper and channel stock? How do I tell? Sorry for my ignorance. The window channel is a little rusty looking, so I don't know if it was chromed at one time or not. Thanks, Dan