New radial tires problem...

[Jim Saraceno]

I finally made the plunge and bought radial tires to replace the bias ply tires on my 1935 Plymouth. I was totally blown away how much of a difference the radials made. The problem is when I get above 55 mph, I get a major shimmy and shake from the back end. The garage that put the tires on for me suggested using glass beads to balance the tires instead of the lead weights. The fact that the ride is so good until I get to that speed makes me think it's a balancing problem.

 

Has anyone had success or problems with glass bead balancing?

[Harley PHD]

The shop might of used a centering cone on the wheel to balance the tire, my wheels don't center on the hub but the lug nuts center the wheel, like a trailer tire.  If there is a lot of weight on the wheels I would mark it and take the weights off and try it.  Or balance it like in the manual on the front hub, with the brakes backed off.  Heavy side settles to the bottom, put two weights on the top and move them equal distance from each other until the tire is static balanced.

I never liked glass bead balancing because it makes a mess when you change the tire.

[matt167]

I used to mount tires professionally, and did many classic cars at the shop I worked at. 

Beads aren’t going to work well on a smaller tire like our cars take. A shop that suggests them for such doesn’t know.  If weights are crossed, they really don’t know.  Take it to a better shop. You could try one that will balance with a pin plate but I don’t think that’s the problem. I’ve even got MG wheels ( bent from factory ) to balance with a cone since I know how.  You may have a bent rim. The old coats tire machines were notorious for bending rims and if original wheels, it’s seen one or 2 of those tire changes.   The other thing that can be tried is rotating the tire 180* on the rim if you have a lot of weight on one or all.  A good shop will know what to do. 

[plymouth46coupe]

I'd wonder if you have a slightly bent rim. Last year I spent the money on bias look radials from diamondback and have been very pleased. When the shop balanced them they really had to load a few rims up with weights which I'm not happy about but they are the original rims and they claimed the rims that old aren't as true and new rims. I don't entirely doubt that. And I don't get any shakes or vibration that I notice. After the fact they told me if I didn't want to see all the weights I should have told them and they could have used some sticky weights inside the rim... for a additional charge. They had a term for it but I don't remember what it was. I didn't know there was such a thing so how would I know to ask... 

 

My spare tire I had balanced too and they did warn me that rim was slightly bent but was balanced the best they could. Since that hopefully will never be needed I wasn't too worried and it'll just sit in the trunk. So that is why I wonder if you are dealing with a slightly bent wheel.

 

I have never heard of glass bead balancing so I am no help with that.

[kencombs]

First thing if it were mine would be a check for bent wheels or crooked tire.   I've seen both wheel that has hit too many curbs, tire with belt laid crooked etc.   It's even possible that the hub could have been damaged in the past by abuse when removing.  Clamp a  straight edge to the body or even a jack stand, placed near the tread center.

 

If no problem noted, have them re-balanced.  Spin balanced, not a bubble machine.

[Plymouthy Adams]

spin balance will usually result in a shift of the issue to another rpm band.....at no time has anyone addressed the tire maker...are these tires from discontinued major brand molds and sold to x company who now cast their own tires using said old molds....these are notorious for number of issues.  Sadly there is no fix other than replace with a quality tire at the typical cost that most folks want, the vintage era look.  

[plymouth46coupe]

Was thinking it could be the tire company issue. Read a lot of bad reviews on some. I wanted the vintage look also so did lots of research first before ordering. Not a cheap purchase so would suck if they sold you something that wasn't up to par

[Los_Control]

Sounds like you may need a better shop ... more knowledgeable operator.

 

I can only assume they are using a spin balancer.

If there is a bent wheel, or the wheel is not properly centered ... operator will see as the wheel spins.

This is so basic ... hard to miss unless the operator is balancing their first tire with no instruction.

 

If a particular tire is spinning true and requires too much weight in one place ... then we are approaching a defective new tire.

To be honest ... this is where the existing tire shop may be more knowledgeable then they letting on ... they do not want to warranty the tire and give a replacement.

Bad tires can happen more often then we think ... depending on the manufacturer.

 

@Jim Saracenodid not mention what brand of tires they bought and are dealing with. ... Michelin is a huge quality manufacturer, with modern equipment   and less chance of a bad tire.

 

Coker on the other hand .... they have good tires, but they have very old molds and they are loose fitting, operator has to be very careful to make a quality tire ... easy to get it off center just a hair and create a heavy spot on one side of the tire and very difficult to balance. .... it is a art form when creating the old school tires.

They simply do not have enough sales to have the latest and newest molds.

 

There is a tire chain store in the PNW  Les Shwab .... when first starting out, no tire companies  would support him Les ... so he bought his tires by the container from over seas at a discounted price.

He had a fair amount of bad tires ...  he bought cheap tires and sold them at a cheap price .... whenever a customer had a complaint, he replaced it instantly free of charge.

Often it was run flat and had a nail in it ... customers problem, les replaced them anyways and he quickly built a huge chain of stores just by supplying service with cheap tires.

 

Now all the big tire dealers wanted in but Les told them to hit the bricks ... Hey @Jim Saracenois this a Les shwab tire?

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

I know....very few options for classic look without a high price tag attached.  The company basically does little to address the issues....they would eat way too many tires.....I have heard that the attitude was that if you wish to drive your car daily, buy tires for daily driving and not the show/vintage aspect.....of course this is only after they make the sale.  

[desoto1939]

I had a tire that the mechanic had a hard time to get balanced. it kept wanting more weight all over the rim. They took the tire off the rim and found a lot of loose rubber pellets and shavings inside the tire. Took all of this out of the inside of the tire and then they were able to get the tire balanced.

 

I run the old bias ply goodyear air tire 600x16 that has the ribbed outer sidewalls. These are not cheap but these were the factory tire when the car was produced.  I also got mine from Coker tire which is now the main supplier for vintage tires.

 

Also most of the older cars the suspensions and frame is not setup to handle radial tires because of the rolling action and tire design. This is why the AACA will deduct major points for a car that should have bias ply tires instead of radial tires.

 

So make sure you are using the correct design tire on your car.

 

Also check to see if the inside belt is bad. put the rim on the front and spin the tire to see if you get any wobble in the tread could be a seperated belt.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

Edited Wednesday at 03:50 PM by desoto1939

[plymouth46coupe]

9 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

Also most of the older cars the suspensions and frame is not setup to handle radial tires because of the rolling action and tire design. This is why the AACA will deduct major points for a car that should have bias ply tires instead of radial tires.

 

So make sure you are using the correct design tire on your car.

 

I've seen this said more than a few times and do not understand how this could impact the suspension and frame negatively... yes at a stand still it will turn harder but how often do you crank the wheel without being in a moving motion. Other than that I only see benefits and the majority will probably tell you of improved handling and ride. Which in my mind would be easier on the frame and suspension. I'm not out for trophies or points so that doesn't matter. Not arguing either... just really curious why you'd say it would negatively affect a frame or suspension. I might learn something

[Eneto-55]

My impression (mainly from what I've read here on the forum) is that the car will turn harder with radials due to the wider tread - larger contact patch, and I think there was also something about the softer sidewalls.

 

As far as damage to the suspension goes, the modern tires are much wider, so obviously more weight - unsprung weight. Our cars were not designed for that. Then if you have a disc brake conversion, my understanding is that there is always a spacer involved, and that puts more stress on the suspension as well, and not only that, but fouls up the Ackerman principle, so there will be more scrubbing. (Possibly mostly bad for the tires, but from what I understand of suspension dynamics, which is unfortunately not a great deal, I would tend to guess that it must also add stress to the suspension.) 

 

I'll be glad to hear any information that will correct my understanding of these questions/issues.

[Plymouthy Adams]

47 minutes ago, plymouth46coupe said:

 

I've seen this said more than a few times and do not understand how this could impact the suspension and frame negatively... yes at a stand still it will turn harder but how often do you crank the wheel without being in a moving motion. Other than that I only see benefits and the majority will probably tell you of improved handling and ride. Which in my mind would be easier on the frame and suspension. I'm not out for trophies or points so that doesn't matter. Not arguing either... just really curious why you'd say it would negatively affect a frame or suspension. I might learn something

 

 

sometimes you got to go back to your youth for this.....by that....I ask, remember watching the cartoons where cars at speed had the rubber shifting rearward...well that is true for a ballon tire.  At speed this adds caster...When at rest....the contact patch causes for harder steering.    Radial design tires need to have added caster....this was all important and the reason for the RTS emblem, radial tuned suspension.  

[plymouth46coupe]

4 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

My impression (mainly from what I've read here on the forum) is that the car will turn harder with radials due to the wider tread - larger contact patch, and I think there was also something about the softer sidewalls.

 

As far as damage to the suspension goes, the modern tires are much wider, so obviously more weight - unsprung weight. Our cars were not designed for that. Then if you have a disc brake conversion, my understanding is that there is always a spacer involved, and that puts more stress on the suspension as well, and not only that, but fouls up the Ackerman principle, so there will be more scrubbing. (Possibly mostly bad for the tires, but from what I understand of suspension dynamics, which is unfortunately not a great deal, I would tend to guess that it must also add stress to the suspension.) 

 

I'll be glad to hear any information that will correct my understanding of these questions/issues.

 

I guess I can see that if switching rims/tire size or width or offset. As for me I kept the stock rims and stock tire size. Simply switched to the bias looking radial of the stock size. So maybe for my application most of those concerns are not applicable. Guess from my experience thus far with the radials, I would not go back to bias ply

[Plymouthy Adams]

You can run the radial on the older alignment specs....but added caster would be in your best interest for radials....else they can be quick to steer at highway speeds and a struggle in a parking situation....reminds me of the movies showing someone driving and always jiggling the steering wheel....to have to do that, you got issues, usually it is neutral or close to neutral caster...if you have negative...a definite issue.

[Jim Saraceno]

The tires I bought are 600R16 from Coker. It's their Excelsior Roadster Radial. They describe it as their best and at $283 a pop for blackwalls, I sure hope they are not bad tires. The garage that changed them is a high end classic car dealer with their own mechanics. The showroom and garage was largely filled with Rolls Royces, Mercedes and such. I'm guessing they know what they're doing. The owner told me to bring the car back in so we could go for a ride and figure out what is going on. I've been pretty busy so we have yet to find a time. When I get a chance to bring her back in, I'll let you know what happens. Thanks for all the input!

[plymouth46coupe]

5 minutes ago, Jim Saraceno said:

The tires I bought are 600R16 from Coker. It's their Excelsior Roadster Radial. They describe it as their best and at $283 a pop for blackwalls, I sure hope they are not bad tires. The garage that changed them is a high end classic car dealer with their own mechanics. The showroom and garage was largely filled with Rolls Royces, Mercedes and such. I'm guessing they know what they're doing. The owner told me to bring the car back in so we could go for a ride and figure out what is going on. I've been pretty busy so we have yet to find a time. When I get a chance to bring her back in, I'll let you know what happens. Thanks for all the input!

 

Coker is a company in particular I've seen a lot of bad reviews. Which is why I went the route I did even though it was even more money. I got the same size tire as you but also got the wide white wall option. So not many choices out there for that. So far I'm happy with what I got. Hopefully you have a good set and they can figure out what is happening.

[Sniper]

I run radials.  No issues that I can tell.  Except it doesn't wander in the ruts.

[Los_Control]

1 hour ago, Jim Saraceno said:

The tires I bought are 600R16 from Coker.

This is good information ... I will supply a possible solution ... I'm guessing it has a heavy spot with more rubber on one side then the other.

 

As a ex Bandag truck tire retreader ... we would true up tires on the buffer.

A perfect example is flat spots in trailer tires ... winter time brakes freeze, trucks start up and drag trailer with frozen brakes ... we patch them up with new rubber vulcanized to the tire ... throw it back on the buffer and as the tire spins around and hits the buffer blades ... you can imagine a wop  wop  wop as the tire spins around and hits the blades removing excess rubber.

The operator has control to move the blades closer 1/32" at a time ... when the blades make a clean pass completely around the tire ... you lose 1/32" of tread depth, now the tire is perfectly round.

 

The tread of the tire surface will look furry from the blade contact ... drive it 1K miles and will be perfectly smooth like any other tire.

This is a aggressive fix, but it is a honest and true fix.

While a retread shop buffer operator might do this service 20 times a week on a semi truck tire ... they do have 16" hubs and can and has done passenger tires also ... it really is more of a favor ... you might need to bring pizza and beer to sweet talk the operator to go through the trouble to mount the tire and do it .... who knows, they may be a classic car guy and want to willingly do it.

 

Or as others have suggested ... get a extra set of tire/wheels for daily drivers ... throw on the cokers for car shows.

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

As a ex Bandag

 

 was there last week, service on of their UPS'.

 

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

they do have 16" hubs and can and has done passenger tires also .

 

My understanding is they no longer do pass car stuff, not built as study as they used to be and not worth retreading anymore.  Not sure when they quit, if they still have the tooling anymore or anyone that knows the tricks left.

[Bob Riding]

When I was looking at wheels for my '40 Plymouth, I had my cousin's tire shop (whom I trusted) spin check 17 wheels (without the tires) and 14 were bent or not usable where weights would correct the situation. Decades or curb and road abuse take their toll. 

[Los_Control]

10 minutes ago, Sniper said:

My understanding is they no longer do pass car stuff, not built as study as they used to be and not worth retreading anymore.  Not sure when they quit, if they still have the tooling anymore or anyone that knows the tricks left.

100% correct .... a passenger tire is not worth retreading. They will not do it.

 

But they do have hubs to fit all sizes of tires including 16" ... there is all kinds of industrial tires that can be retreaded for forklifts or whatever ... they have a hub that will fit a 16" passenger tire .... no they will not retread it .... too much liability riding on a very thin carcass .... they can mount it and true it up.

 

Same time, they can and will fix flat spots on a 16" trailer tire, they can do professional sidewall repairs on a passenger tire ... a new tire is cheaper.

They will not retread one ... they can work with them.

 

I once retreaded a set of 31-10.50 - 15" tires for my Toyota 4x4 truck .... I applied commercial traction deep tread .... 80K pound semis got 130K miles from this tread.

I would never ever make that tire for a customer ... A small 4K pound truck the tread would never wear ... the casing would fail first ... we know when tires reach ~10 years old the rubber and sidewall fail .... as the shop manager, I could work on my own time and create my own tire ... they were awesome in snow and ice and looked bad arse ... I would never make them for a customer because of liability.

 

This is why I suggested beer & pizza to ask for a favor ... + $$ to pay for the time .... they can, but normally would not.

[46BulldogDodge]

Regarding Glass Beads or Ceramic Beads---Do a search on the Dodge Power Wagon Forum in "Phil's Archives.  Several owners of vintage power wagons have used them in bias ply tires which tend to get a flat spot if left sitting for extended time.  Dick Hultman

[Los_Control]

5 minutes ago, 46BulldogDodge said:

Regarding Glass Beads or Ceramic Beads---Do a search on the Dodge Power Wagon Forum in "Phil's Archives.  Several owners of vintage power wagons have used them in bias ply tires which tend to get a flat spot if left sitting for extended time.  Dick Hultman

This is also a good point ... not the problem the poster is having ... 

 

I once retreaded a set of 10 ply E-78-14 tires for a Datsun pickup ... great tires ... because heavy bias ply they had flat spots every morning.

I had to drive through my community and aprox 3 miles to get to the freeway every morning.

every morning the truck had flat spots and rode rode like a hay wagon for about 1.5 miles ... until the tires warmed up and became round again.

 

The poster has radial tires and flat spots do not happen here.

[46BulldogDodge]

Sorry for the diversion...I should have said most of the power wagon concerns were "death wobble".   Dick Hultman