occmsrzr Posted July 5 Report Posted July 5 (edited) Hello there- I finally decided to sign up here after lurking for a couple of years. I am in the midst of a multi year repair and slight modification process of my wife's 1946 Desoto Custom. It's a long story, so I'll keep it brief... The first year was spent de-yucking (amazingly disgusting inside) a car that had sat outside for 25 years with god-only-knows dead vermin in it. Then, about 180 hours of metalwork repairing the floor, installing all new plumbing, firewall mounted brake m/c with a booster, windshield visor, make it run... etc., etc... The second year was spent finding parts and component gathering. I acquired an A833OD, 49 ply bell, 30-ish lb flywheel, Hurst shifter (and correct linkages!!) clutch disc/pp and sundries... then kitted the A833, modified an adapter (AOk) for the bell, pinned and machined the adapter to the bell (and the bell itself to clear the bearing holder bolts), and finally last week I got her back in the stall and removed the FD trans and all of it's related parts. The "new" bell is on the block, the underside has been pressure washed, and Monday I will cut out the crossmember and move it forward to it's new forever(I hope) home. Whew. I suck at typing, but do tend towards wordiness... Anyways, I discovered that I will be using a different starter than the original (higher mounting point) but they seem to be readily available, and at this point, I'm beyond committed so that's just life. While I'm waiting for that and some flywheel studs, I can install my new wiring harness, headliner, replace all the under dash wiring... I drove the car in there, going to take a bit to drive it back out... but that's the goal.. I want to thank all of you that have taken the time to ask and answer questions on this forum. Thank you. -Mike Edited July 5 by occmsrzr Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 5 Report Posted July 5 good deal, sounds like you have set forth your marching orders....sounds like a good adventure. Quote
occmsrzr Posted July 5 Author Report Posted July 5 I may have left out a few things... George Asche is a pretty good salesman... I may have acquired some manifolds and carburetors from him on accident.. In the end, It'll be an all Mopar, period correct fun car to drive. Not the same as the 340 RoadRunner that I continually kick my own arse for selling, but a great conversation starter and classy unit to tool around in. It was painted the original Monterrey Blue right before it was parked, so after many (understatement) hours of cutting and buffing it looks like the old "stonewashed" blue jeans from the eighties. I gripe at her about her choice of this car, but secretly I have come to an understanding with it I like flatties, two/three/four wheels or tracks so it fits in around here just fine. It's nice to converse with you after reading so many of your posts here... I really appreciate you. Have a great day! Quote
occmsrzr Posted July 8 Author Report Posted July 8 Well, today saw the removal of the original crossmenber in the DeSoto, modifications of the crossmenber to make it clear the adapter, and cutting the ends off to narrow the overall width to fit in the 4'' forward frame holes that (suspiciously) look to be intended to be used with a different transmission/bell combo? All I can say is, why did I wait so long to get a plasma cutter... While progress is slow, I did discover a challenge that should be interesting. This transmission is out of a 1975 Aspen, with an OAL of slightly under 22" from front face to the rear of the shifter pivot. The space in the floor is 16"... putting the shifter in a difficult spot... right under the seat frame... Hmm... Tomorrow I hope to pretty up my clearancing of the crossmember and get it welded back together. Not sure If I'll use rivet nut inserts or make some access holes on the outside of the frame to magic some nuts on the inside of the frame to bolt it in with. Looking forward to getting that transmission hanging and testing my fit and runout... Quote
kencombs Posted July 8 Report Posted July 8 (edited) 17 hours ago, occmsrzr said: Well, today saw the removal of the original crossmenber in the DeSoto, modifications of the crossmenber to make it clear the adapter, and cutting the ends off to narrow the overall width to fit in the 4'' forward frame holes that (suspiciously) look to be intended to be used with a different transmission/bell combo? All I can say is, why did I wait so long to get a plasma cutter... While progress is slow, I did discover a challenge that should be interesting. This transmission is out of a 1975 Aspen, with an OAL of slightly under 22" from front face to the rear of the shifter pivot. The space in the floor is 16"... putting the shifter in a difficult spot... right under the seat frame... Hmm... Tomorrow I hope to pretty up my clearancing of the crossmember and get it welded back together. Not sure If I'll use rivet nut inserts or make some access holes on the outside of the frame to magic some nuts on the inside of the frame to bolt it in with. Looking forward to getting that transmission hanging and testing my fit and runout... I got lucky when buying my A833OD. Got one from a van. Forward location, and a tilted shifter that moves the knob way fwd. Maybe too far but easy enough to change the angle. Not installed yet but looks fine. Edited July 8 by kencombs Quote
occmsrzr Posted July 8 Author Report Posted July 8 3 hours ago, kencombs said: I got lucky when buying my A833OD. Got one from a van. Forward location, and a tilted shifter that moves the knob way fwd. Maybe too far but easy enough to change the angle. Not installed yet but looks fine. I'll be looking for pics of that unit as a reference... when I get there, I'm sure the solution will become apparent. While keeping the car original matters in some places, in others not so much. For example, the shell and rope (on the back of the drivers seat) in the passenger compartment are important to her, while a seat with a headrest (whiplash!!) is important to me; so are seatbelts. In other words, whatever needs to happen in the front will just have to happen.. to late to turn back now . We do our own upholstery and shaping so it's wide open... Today's progress was limited. However, I did manage to get the pilot bushing installed. I know there are a lot of generational differences in crankshaft flange bores, so I can't speak to any other engines than mine, but the 1946 237 fluid drive original crank in this engine is machined for a standard pilot. I was kinda sweating it... So, I found my round TUIT and crawled under with some oil, solvent, and a brake hone in a drill. Cleaned up the bore and lightly honed it. Snap gauge/ micrometer.... drum roll... .002 smaller than the OD of the bushing from Brewer's. Big sigh of relief, congratulatory ball throwing (for my yellow sidekick); bushing in freezer, take a nap, install bushing gently... Next challenge! Well, maybe with a little less bravado... that kind of attitude will get you your a** handed to you. When I hang the trans on the bell/mount and check my machining completely assembled then maybe I can do a jig.. if it's within spec.. If not... there's always time to do it twice. Quote
Sniper Posted July 9 Report Posted July 9 Chrysler had used the same pilot bushing from the beginning till they went to a hub mounted bearing. Same part number. Quote
occmsrzr Posted July 9 Author Report Posted July 9 (edited) Roger that... to clarify, I meant whether the bores were finished to accept a pilot bushing or bored pretty much at all. There seems to be internet info disparities about fluid drive cranks *in 25 inch blocks, and happily mine was a piece of cake. Would have had to deal with it no matter what it was... just glad it was the easiest option! Edited July 9 by occmsrzr Quote
Sniper Posted July 9 Report Posted July 9 Well, one could make the argument that having two part numbers that are otherwise identical other than being machined for a pilot bushing is less cost effective than just having them all the same with one part number. But then again, we are talking bean counters and they might see it different. 1 Quote
kencombs Posted July 9 Report Posted July 9 I do know that in the early automatic days GM used to only machine a rough, shallow hole in those cranks destined for automatics. Not all GM makes but some. But at this stage of our old irons life, who knows if the crank found in one today is the original. Likely some rebuilders would bore all cranks for a pilot bushing, for the PN stock issue Sniper mentioned. They would be more sensitive to that than the factory due to lower stock levels. Quote
Sniper Posted July 9 Report Posted July 9 3 hours ago, kencombs said: I do know that in the early automatic days GM used to Gm was always an odd duck. They had like what 3-4 455-454 sized engines and similar count of 350 sized engines, all different, no real parts swap, heck there was the Chevy vs BOP bell housing pattern. I mean come on, same trans otherwise? It's a miracle they didn't go bankrupt back then, lol. Quote
occmsrzr Posted July 9 Author Report Posted July 9 Most of my product familiarity with Chrysler Corp is with LA series small blocks, later Magnums, mopar auto transmissions, A833's and Jeep in general. Never owned a poly or a hemi... My GM familiarity had more to do with the marine world... and I'm not a fan. I do like WIndsor Ford SB engines (RPM'S, anyone?)... But that's neither here nor there, I have buddies that know and love GM products and do very well with them. As long as you keep the GM stuff away from my Mopars... we'll get along fine Well, today I got the crossmember welded up and pinned in place utilizing the holes that are 4" forward of the originals(!) and the bell mounts are bolted to it... almost like it was done on purpose. I still have to figure out how I'm going to attach it to the inside of the frame, as it was riveted and the frame is boxed (I am averse to boring 6x 13/16 holes in the outside of it to install nuts). It was welded on the bottom though, so I will be doing that again regardless... and I am considering all options for the ears at this point. Any experience/words of wisdom out there? The MCH6205 starter is bolted into place without to much fuss, the oil line fittings on the 25" block are a bit close but it appears to be workable. I am waiting for my flywheel bolts/studs then I'll be able to bolt that in, hook up the electrical and test that system out. If everything to plays well together (bell, wheel, starter sourced after much info gathering) that will be good day if it spins around and does it's thing. Still waiting for the solenoid. I'm tired. I will take some pics and post them once we get some tech issues sorted. Apple doesn't play well with Pi in the first place, and the Apple died... good times. Time to make Apple Pi or something like that.... Quote
kencombs Posted July 10 Report Posted July 10 Your LA series familiarity would translate well to an early hemi or poly as the rotating parts are very similar. For instance the early 318 poly and LA version share the same bearings. Cam is different though due to the valve arrangement poly vs LA. The bolt pattern clutch housing to engine is mostly the same poly, LA, hemi. Quote
occmsrzr Posted July 10 Author Report Posted July 10 Got my Apple and Pi to play together... hmmm... Apple/Pi... oh, nevermind... I'll attempt to post some pics... This is as it sits currently. Quote
occmsrzr Posted July 10 Author Report Posted July 10 This is the shortened crossmember, whick I sleeved for strength: Quote
occmsrzr Posted July 10 Author Report Posted July 10 So the long story- I purchased an adapter from AOK late last fall, and bellhousing, manifolds and dual carb set up. When I tried the adapter on the transmission, it was a not happening, as has been the case with their last batch of adapters around that time. I was aware of it, and George is a good guy, so I just handled it. The top two holes for the adapter-to-bell and the trans-to-adapter were correctly located in relation to the undersized bearing retainer while the bottom two holes in each were on another planet. The beveled holes did need to be properly cut, btw. So, I mounted the plate on the bell with the top two bolts, drilled and pinned it @ the 3 and 9 o'clock positions. Fussed about getting the center of the BELL, then bored the adapter and bell to a darn tight fit on the bearing retainer. Also had to relieve the bell where the bearing retainer bolts would make contact as they are intended to be fitted to an open-all-the-way-through hole. Then I (actually a buddy, TIG'ing aluminum isn't my thing) welded up the bottom holes. Drilled and tapped new holes. Bolted transmission up to the combo for the first time... life was good. So as I have been assembling/modifying the unit to fit in the car... several things I was ignorant of have surfaced. One, the adapter is not at a 90deg angle (true) on the bell. That made the notching of the crossmember a little more challenging than expected. Then of course, ignorance as to starter location in the different bell. Right now, I am just fitting everything together... I'm waiting for freezeplugs for the back of the engine, so there is at least one more mess to clean up before I do a final clean up, scuff and paint. I'm thinking I have the clutch linkage and pivot figured out, really don't want to put the old brake m/c in there just to be a pivot point... although it is an option.. I guess... I will take pics of the numbers on the bell, flywheel and close ups of the crossmember before I put it together for the (hopefully) final time. I joined this site and have been making these posts so that if some poor, happily married fool (and wants to stay happily married) tells his wife that he will take an old, roadkilled car and make it live again, he will have enough information to know what he's getting into! Actually, I have been benefiting from the accumulated wisdom and knowledge base and just wanted to give a little back. Make sparks and bust knuckles... after my nap... maybe... Quote
occmsrzr Posted Tuesday at 06:25 PM Author Report Posted Tuesday at 06:25 PM The flywheel is in, with the ($$$) correct shouldered/notched bolts (that are almost a lug, minus the press fit). The solenoid is mounted, new cables have been made... and... All is well. Cranks smoothly. Ran it briefly. BIG sigh of relief. Whoohoo! Moving on: the transmission is hanging from the adapter, input shaft spins freely, and everything clears. It's been a good day... so I quit. Did not yet use a dial indicator on the flywheel to check TIR... will do when I finish my mock up before I assemble for real. I cut the registry bore tight and centered it within a thou when I machined the adapter plate and bell, so it should be good. I will check it though... and play the pin game if I have to Now that I can see everything and take measurements, maybe I can start gaining a little momentum on this project! To do: rear end from 90's XJ Cherokee parking brake actuation.. ??? driveline cut out floor and modify for shifter clearance remove clutch pivot pin, drill frame, make bracket that bolts into original m/c bolt holes and captures pin so that it's all nice and tidy modify clutch linkage and clean it up/repair as req'd freezeplugs on the back of the engine build crossmember for A833 mount and all the stuff that has yet to reveal itself.. of which I'm sure there is plenty! Pics soon... Quote
occmsrzr Posted Wednesday at 07:40 PM Author Report Posted Wednesday at 07:40 PM Another post with no pics... sorry... The shifter is roughed in. I cut a rectangular hole apx. 4x5", 1" from the floor cover hole on the drivers side of the hump. I folded about 1/2" of excess steel straight up to make it easier to attach a shifter boot box to... don't want to break my arm patting myself on the back- but that almost makes up for at least one of stupid things I did.. I hope.. Anyways, the levers and shifter are on the tranny. I will have to relieve the seat frame a bit but the original should work with simple mods, so that's going to make upholstery a bit easier! I still need to make an adapter bracket for the clutch bellcrank holder that mounts on the bellhousing. The original is two bolts vertically, the Plymouth is two bolts horizontally. Also, the DeSoto bell is a bit wider at that point due to the starter mounting location being closer to the ground, so some spacing is in order. Things you never wanted to learn.. Tomorrow... Quote
occmsrzr Posted 21 hours ago Author Report Posted 21 hours ago Tomorrow... or the next day... Some pics: Quote
occmsrzr Posted 21 hours ago Author Report Posted 21 hours ago It's rough... but it's in there. I went ahead and studded the bottom two transmission bolts, as it's stronger and should assist in assembly with the clutch in place. Speaking of the clutch pivot mount... a bit of 3/4 square tubing with holes solved that puzzle- but no pics yet. Haven't gone after building a bracket to eliminate the brake m/c as the pedal pivot yet. Waiting for the trans mount so I can make one trip to get steel and build that bracket and the the rear crossmember at the same time. Not sure if I want to use a B-Body driveline and adapt it at the diff, or go the other way yet. Cherokee drivelines are pretty short... hmmm. Our local Driveline Services shop went out of business (the guy wrecked his motorcycle, and after the physical stuff was healed he developed some serious mental issues!!) but I've got a buddy with a balancer... should be fun. That's all for now... Quote
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