Do I need a new headgasket?

[silverh20]

I noticed some oil weeping and bubbles, see the link below for a video of it. I'm new to this platform so I don't have much knowledge yet. I'm guessing this means new headgasket time?

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Gs5a9bVQCNipRBWL6

[Sam Buchanan]

The engine sounds good! However, the idle is set way too high, these engines will tick over like a sewing machine at 400-500 rpm.

 

Also....please get rid of the the plastic fuel filter! When that thing gets brittle, cracks and sprays fuel due to proximity to the exhaust manifold you will have a serious fire hazard.

 

And yes, it looks like you are due a head gasket.

[Los_Control]

I wonder how many miles on the engine? .... It looks fairly clean.

I will agree the head gasket is leaking, no doubt about it.

When you do torque a head down you need to run it a little bit the retorque again .... I think 3 times is suggested.

 

I figure it is like wiping your butt, wipe 3 times to realize 2 times was enough.

Keep re-torquing the head until you find everything is settled and no longer moving.

 

I just wonder if that is whats going on with yours, it needed re-torqued and did not get it.

I would imagine if you see it leaking like it is, the gasket has been damaged and needs replaced ...... Might be worth a try to torque the head down now and see what kind of movement you get from the bolts.

If it cures the problem you should go out and buy a lottery ticket because it is your lucky day.

 

Just remember when you replace it to re-torque a few times afterwards.

[silverh20]

3 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

The engine sounds good! However, the idle is set way too high, these engines will tick over like a sewing machine at 400-500 rpm.

 

Also....please get rid of the the plastic fuel filter! When that thing gets brittle, cracks and sprays fuel due to proximity to the exhaust manifold you will have a serious fire hazard.

 

And yes, it looks like you are due a head gasket.

Thanks! I bought it after someone spent 3 years restoring it inside and out, then it changed hands 2 times before becoming mine, no maintenance done by the 2 priors. I'm used to working on my 2004 BMW's straight 6 but I know nothing about these flatheads, yet..

 

I found a glass fuel filter in a box of old parts given to me with the car, I wonder if it's spare, or if it was swapped with the plastic one for having issues. Either way, I don't like the sound of an engine bay fire so I'll get to that ASAP!

 

Where do you guys like to get new head gaskets from? 

[silverh20]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

I wonder how many miles on the engine? .... It looks fairly clean.

I will agree the head gasket is leaking, no doubt about it.

When you do torque a head down you need to run it a little bit the retorque again .... I think 3 times is suggested.

 

I figure it is like wiping your butt, wipe 3 times to realize 2 times was enough.

Keep re-torquing the head until you find everything is settled and no longer moving.

 

I just wonder if that is whats going on with yours, it needed re-torqued and did not get it.

I would imagine if you see it leaking like it is, the gasket has been damaged and needs replaced ...... Might be worth a try to torque the head down now and see what kind of movement you get from the bolts.

If it cures the problem you should go out and buy a lottery ticket because it is your lucky day.

 

Just remember when you replace it to re-torque a few times afterwards.

I wonder too lol. Odometer says 67k mi but I trust that as much as I trust our politicians, any of em, either party! lol

 

Thanks for the advice on the torque down, I'll give it a go first and see. Do you guys torque by set strength or just go by feel?

[Bob Ritter]

If it were me, I would replace the head gasket, you may need to have  the head resurfaced. It is a lot of work, but well worth it. You may want to take compression reading. It looks like it has been leaking for while.

[Sniper]

20 minutes ago, silverh20 said:

I'm used to working on my 2004 BMW's straight 6 but I know nothing about these flatheads, yet..

 

I thought I was unique, lol.  I have a 2015 535i (son's college car) and a flathead 6 too.  I, and my son, do all the maintenance on the BMW, he used to help me with the flatty, till he moved.  Taught him the basics on the Plymouth and threw him out of the boat into the water with the BMW.

[Sam Buchanan]

28 minutes ago, silverh20 said:

Thanks! I bought it after someone spent 3 years restoring it inside and out, then it changed hands 2 times before becoming mine, no maintenance done by the 2 priors. I'm used to working on my 2004 BMW's straight 6 but I know nothing about these flatheads, yet..

 

I found a glass fuel filter in a box of old parts given to me with the car, I wonder if it's spare, or if it was swapped with the plastic one for having issues. Either way, I don't like the sound of an engine bay fire so I'll get to that ASAP!

 

Where do you guys like to get new head gaskets from? 

 

An easy filter fix is one of the metal filters commonly found in your local auto parts emporium. I would mount it near the fuel pump outlet so it would be below the exhaust manifold in the remote chance it developed a leak.

 

Here is your first purchase!!!

 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=10593924&cc=1486874&pt=10335&jsn=382

 

Rock Auto has the head gasket:

 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=121713&cc=1349917&pt=5412&jsn=416

 

Also your friendly NAPA can help you out:

 

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/FPGHS7564C

 

These flatties were produced in various flavors up to about 1970, often used in fork lifts, farm equipment, stationary pumps, etc. Check the mainstream suppliers first then you can use the specialty  vendors when necessary.

Edited March 4 by Sam Buchanan

[Sniper]

From the Mopar Montana guys

 

https://www.moparmontana.com/tech-faq.html

 

HEAD TORQUE
Your block should ideally be decked to give a smooth flat surface for optimum sealing. Head bolt holes should be chamfered and thread chased with a tap after decking. A modern composition head gasket will give the best results  and these are available off-the-shelf from Fel-Pro for 23" and 25" Mopar flathead 6's. Fel-Pro recommends using a sealant on the copper (block) side of the gasket. Vintage double sided copper gaskets require sealant on both sides. A copper spray such as Copper Coat works well. EDGY heads have a very smooth, flat surface for use with modern gaskets.  Due to this, no sealant is required on the head side of the Fel-Pro gasket.

Any head fasteners that go into the coolant jacket (ALL of them do on Mopar flathead 6's!) should have a non-hardening PTFE sealant such as ARP or Permatex applied to the threads. Hardened and ground flat washers should be used, and need an ID chamfer if using bolts (chamfer goes up). ARP makes the best ones and are available directly from us. Ensure that the fasteners you are using fully engage the threads in the block. If using ARP studs, the upper threads, and nut/washer faces must be coated with ARP assembly lube.

Torquing should be done in three stages following the order on the attached picture. Use of a high quality torque wrench is highly recommended. Torque values for 23" and 25" Mopar flathead 6's are as follows:

First stage: 25 ft-lbs
Second stage: 45 ft-lbs

Third stage torque is fastener dependent:
Stock head bolts: 65-70 ft-lbs (with sealant on the threads, oil underhead and on washer faces)
Stock studs and nuts: 52-57 ft-lbs (sealant on block threads, oil on top threads and nut/washer faces)
ARP studs and nuts: 63 ft-lbs (sealant on block threads, ARP lube on top threads and nut/washer faces)
 
Run the engine to normal operating temperature and allow it to fully cool over-night before retorquing.
Repeat this procedure at least three times, or until there is no more appreciable take-up on the fasteners.

Edited March 4 by Sniper

[Los_Control]

I will not say this is the only way, just how mine is done.

 

I have the glass filter and metal line all the way from the fuel pump to the glass filter.

Simply because the area is on top of the exhaust manifold ..... the heat will quickly deteriorate the plastic filter and rubber fuel lines.

What you have is a good simple get me by to test things ..... Nothing you would want to run on a permanent basis.

 

Seems like some previous owner was thinking when they got the glass fuel filter ..... A simple modern metal filter could work also ..... I have one installed right near the tank.

Where the rubber lines to connect it wont be affected from heat from the exhaust. ..... My line is old and needs replaced .... I would not consider replacing it with anything but metal.

 

The head bolt torque specs are listed .... just look them up I am too lazy to pull the book down to look it up ........ just remember if it is 75 pounds, first torque them to 25, then 45 then 75 .... do it in steps ..... that is for a new gasket ..... just torque it down to final stage on your current gasket.

[Los_Control]

41 minutes ago, silverh20 said:

Thanks! I bought it after someone spent 3 years restoring it inside and out, then it changed hands 2 times before becoming mine, no maintenance done by the 2 priors.

Seems like this is common, for example the engine was rebuilt then the project changed hands.

The next guy installed the engine but never ran it and it changed hands again.

Then the next guy who gets it assumes all the proper procedures were done in the past .... Fact is nobody did nothing. They just thought the other guy was smart enough to do it.

[JerseyHarold]

The original engine number should begin with 'P23'.  Before ordering any engine parts, I'd verify what engine is in the car.  If it's from another year or model, I'd get parts to fit what's in the car now.

Edited March 4 by JerseyHarold

[9 foot box]

   The exhaust manifold nuts and washers at the front and rear of the exhaust manifold are tapered and should go into concave bronze washers. The castle end of the nut shouldn’t be outward. A manifold stud kit has four castle nuts and washers. It allows the manifold expand and contract. Look in the spare parts that you may have gotten. Maybe you’ll find the correct parts. Rick D.

[Tom Skinner]

Does this help?

[silverh20]

On 3/4/2024 at 2:56 PM, Sniper said:

 

I thought I was unique, lol.  I have a 2015 535i (son's college car) and a flathead 6 too.  I, and my son, do all the maintenance on the BMW, he used to help me with the flatty, till he moved.  Taught him the basics on the Plymouth and threw him out of the boat into the water with the BMW.

Haha yeah a lot of us BMW people seem to stay in their lane. I don't mind showing a little love to some other brands however. Doing the basics yourself on a BMW saves so much money! This is my 330ci

[silverh20]

On 3/4/2024 at 2:57 PM, Sam Buchanan said:

 

An easy filter fix is one of the metal filters commonly found in your local auto parts emporium. I would mount it near the fuel pump outlet so it would be below the exhaust manifold in the remote chance it developed a leak.

 

Here is your first purchase!!!

 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=10593924&cc=1486874&pt=10335&jsn=382

 

Rock Auto has the head gasket:

 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=121713&cc=1349917&pt=5412&jsn=416

 

Also your friendly NAPA can help you out:

 

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/FPGHS7564C

 

These flatties were produced in various flavors up to about 1970, often used in fork lifts, farm equipment, stationary pumps, etc. Check the mainstream suppliers first then you can use the specialty  vendors when necessary.

Thanks for the links!

[silverh20]

On 3/5/2024 at 7:24 AM, Tom Skinner said:

Does this help?

Yes! Much appreciated.

[silverh20]

On 3/4/2024 at 3:00 PM, Sniper said:

From the Mopar Montana guys

 

https://www.moparmontana.com/tech-faq.html

 

HEAD TORQUE
Your block should ideally be decked to give a smooth flat surface for optimum sealing. Head bolt holes should be chamfered and thread chased with a tap after decking. A modern composition head gasket will give the best results  and these are available off-the-shelf from Fel-Pro for 23" and 25" Mopar flathead 6's. Fel-Pro recommends using a sealant on the copper (block) side of the gasket. Vintage double sided copper gaskets require sealant on both sides. A copper spray such as Copper Coat works well. EDGY heads have a very smooth, flat surface for use with modern gaskets.  Due to this, no sealant is required on the head side of the Fel-Pro gasket.

Any head fasteners that go into the coolant jacket (ALL of them do on Mopar flathead 6's!) should have a non-hardening PTFE sealant such as ARP or Permatex applied to the threads. Hardened and ground flat washers should be used, and need an ID chamfer if using bolts (chamfer goes up). ARP makes the best ones and are available directly from us. Ensure that the fasteners you are using fully engage the threads in the block. If using ARP studs, the upper threads, and nut/washer faces must be coated with ARP assembly lube.

Torquing should be done in three stages following the order on the attached picture. Use of a high quality torque wrench is highly recommended. Torque values for 23" and 25" Mopar flathead 6's are as follows:

First stage: 25 ft-lbs
Second stage: 45 ft-lbs

Third stage torque is fastener dependent:
Stock head bolts: 65-70 ft-lbs (with sealant on the threads, oil underhead and on washer faces)
Stock studs and nuts: 52-57 ft-lbs (sealant on block threads, oil on top threads and nut/washer faces)
ARP studs and nuts: 63 ft-lbs (sealant on block threads, ARP lube on top threads and nut/washer faces)
 
Run the engine to normal operating temperature and allow it to fully cool over-night before retorquing.
Repeat this procedure at least three times, or until there is no more appreciable take-up on the fasteners.

Good info, thanks!

[p15-1948]

13 minutes ago, silverh20 said:

Thanks for the links!

Concerning reprint service books, I've only purchased one and didn't like it.  Many pictures do not reproduce well, pictures had low contrast and appeared muddy.  I don't have experience with this particular reprint, just my experience in general.  Now I only buy originals even if they're somewhat soiled, the pictures are clear.  Good luck with the project.