Carter B&B issues (leaking).

[Ivan_B]

Hello everyone!

 

I need some assistance with my Carter carb. The car is new to me, so I am still figuring out some minor issues and questionable repairs from the PO. Anyway, my carb was leaking through the throttle shaft. I took off the cover and found out that there was a new carb kit installed, and the float was full of gas. I repaired the float (tested it in boiling water, so it is good), put the carb back together, but it did not stop leaking. I checked the float level, it was just a bit high so I took it down a notch. Started the car with no air filter and noticed an audible whistle and gas leaking straight on top of the throttle. Not from the acceleration pump hole, but from the "bar" going across the intake. Here is a video. If I am reading a diagram correctly, that is the main discharge jet. Is it supposed to do that? It is visibly dripping fuel into the intake.

Also, the carb is dripping about 2 drops per second from the throttle shaft onto the exhaust, while the engine is running. Noticed that my needle has a flat seal. It seems that some carb kits have a pointy seal needle, some - flat. Is it possible that someone mismatched the seat/needle combination on my carb so that it just does not seal? This is a 1940 P10, with what looks like an OEM carb.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QJSjPzWj7CHCU8vn4lS-4yAojvfvxugk/view?usp=sharing

 

Thanks.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Ivan_B

[greg g]

Check two things float level and needle and seat.  If the needle valve isn't closing it will allow the float chamber to over fill. I'd the float isn't seating correctly it won't push the needle in to the seat proper.

 

Current wisdom is to set the float a 32nd or 2 lower than factory spec.  Today's gas blends expand more at lower Temps leaving some room in the chamber also prevents over flow when under hood Temps are high.  To lower thr float you want to bend the tab that contacts the needle up so the float doesn't need to come up so high to close the valve.

Third item to check is the little retainer clip that fits into the groove the float pin goes into. If it not there or if misaligned the float won't work to close the inlet.

 

In the downloads area of this site is a pictorial of rebuilding the carb.  This can help you identify  the parts reffered too above.

[Ivan_B]

16 minutes ago, greg g said:

In the downloads area of this site is a pictorial of rebuilding the carb.  This can help you identify  the parts reffered too above.

Thanks, Greg. I am generally familiar with how the carb works and what's inside I can take the float down some more to see if it helps. However, I've done some research and here:

TS replaced the flat needle with a pointy one, and it seems to have fixed the problem, so I am guessing I might need to do that as well.

My other concern was that the jet seems to be literally sprinkling the fuel into the intake, rather than creating a mist. I have never actually looked into the carburetor on a running engine, so I've no idea whether or not this is normal. Did you check the video, does it look okay? I suppose that if the fuel from the jet drips onto the closed throttle flap like that (at idle), it will leak from the shaft just like if the bowl was over floating, wouldn't it?

 

Also, I do not have the original retainer clip in my carb, instead, there is a rather crafty DIY square bracket, cut out of aluminum. As far as I can see, it does keep the float pin exactly where it is supposed to be.

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Ivan_B

[Sniper]

14 hours ago, Ivan_B said:

My other concern was that the jet seems to be literally sprinkling the fuel into the intake, rather than creating a mist.

 

At idle it should not be doing anything.  The fuel is being "injected" into the carb because the inlet is not being controlled.  As Greg mentioned, it's either the float or the needle/seat assembly.  My 51's carb did the same thing when I bought it, a good rebuild fixed it, the cause was a bad needle tip.

 

 

Attached is the rebuild instructions I used.

 

 

BandB carb.pdf

[Ivan_B]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

My 51's carb did the same thing when I bought it, a good rebuild fixed it, the cause was a bad needle tip.

Thanks. At least, both your needles are the "correct" type pointy ones, I am used to. Looks like I am getting another rebuild kit.

[Sniper]

I used a walker kit, 15021B.

 

Not sure if that is correct for your carb though.  Might want to run the carb number past the folks here to verify what you have.

 

If you want the needle and seat assembly, like I show, then the Walker pn's is 31-509.  This is included in the kit I listed.

 

https://www.carburetor-parts.com/carter-ball-needle-seat

 

 

 

[Ivan_B]

Thank you for the link, I already ordered some generic B&B kit off e-bay. Yes, I am probably just looking for the proper needle-seat combination. I am running the 439S carburetor.

[Ivan_B]

Well, I think I've found the source of the leak. No wonder it would not seal properly, the seat is filled with curly-string soft shavings of some sort. Can't believe I did not check that right away and waited a week for the new carb kit to arrive. I am off to the store to get a temporary inline filter, to stick into the rubber hose before the fuel pump. I'll deal with this properly a bit later. Hopefully, these shavings are not from the pump, though ?

[Dartgame]

That would certainly cause the issue with the float. A filter between the pump and the carb is the solution as you noted.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Dartgame

[Ivan_B]

I have a metal line in between, so sourcing a proper OEM-style filter will take some time (I want a carter sponge, with a glass bowl). I just plugged a temporary filter between the body and the fuel pump, hopefully that will help for now.

 

A bit later: what do you know, it ain't leaking anymore ?

Edited August 19, 2023 by Ivan_B
addition

[soth122003]

I'm thinking about one of these for my 48 P-15.

 

https://www.oldmoparts.com/parts/p_fuel/original-glass-style-bowl-fuel-filter/

 

Joe Lee

[Ivan_B]

54 minutes ago, soth122003 said:

I'm thinking about one of these for my 48 P-15.

Yep, that's the one. There are some options on eBay, etc. I think the ceramic sponge would be more durable since you can clean it (versus replacing the paper elements, which you can get who knows where, these days).

[soth122003]

For me I don't think that will be a problem. I have a filter at the tank before the electric prime pump and then the mechanical fuel pump has a brass mesh screen that filters out any chunks that make it that far. This filter is to ascertain fuel is being delivered to the carb and that the fuel is clean and not contaminated with little specks of debris or water.

 

Also looking at the filter and its price, I don't think the element is replaceable. Just looking at the gap between the filter and the inside of the glass bowl, there is nothing holding it in place. At about $35-$40, it is only replaced about every few years, depending on the state of the filter maybe 5 years. Open the bowl and clean it out then spray the filter element with carb cleaner the freshen it up. For the price I'll go that route. IMHO.

 

Desoto1939 and Dodgeb4ya should be able to chime in on this as they are using this type of filter in the vehicles.

 

Joe Lee

[Sniper]

You can get the paper filters easily, GF124 is the part number.  You can even get a bronze version of the filter.

 

The filter housing, $30 free shipping

 

https://tinyurl.com/29ps2b4x

 

[Ivan_B]

Thanks Sniper!

[soth122003]

Thanks Sniper. I'll have to wait a bit tho. My carb seemed like it blew up the other day. Fuel leaking like a sieve. I was starting my car and heard a small backfire through the carb and the car started running like crap and died. Checked the carb and it was leaking all over the place, like soaked from top to bottom. I thought I had blown a worn out gasket and as I had just got the carb kit a few days before, I rebuilt the carb yesterday. Put it on today and it leaked like no tomorrow. Pulled the carb and it turned out the hole where the seat screws into the bowl had stripped threads. Only about 2 threads left intact. Because the carb is made out of pot metal, there really isn't a fix for this. I am trying my luck with JB Weld and hoping for the best. If not ebay has quite a few B&B carbs on is site. I can use on of those and mine to hopefully make one good one if the JB doesn't work. I'll update later.

 

Joe Lee

[Ivan_B]

@soth122003 you mean someone tightened the seat too much and damaged the threads in the side of the bowl? That will explain the leaking, even if everything else is working properly. You should be able to re-thread it to a larger size. An alternative would be to use a copper pipe insert. You'll probably need an expensive tap, etc., to do this, though. So it might just be easier/cheaper/faster to get another carb/bowl.

[soth122003]

Well JB'd the seat and it is still leaking. It didn't leak with the prime pump, but started leaking after the engine was running. I have the male to male adapter on the seat to connect a barb end for a fuel hose instead of the steel line. (came that way) I wonder if one of the adapters is cracked. I'll have friend help check for that tomorrow before ordering a carb I might not need.

 

Joe Lee

[Ivan_B]

Can you see exactly where it is leaking from? Did you use some pipe tape in the adapter threads? ?

[soth122003]

Found the leak. It's the gasket connecting the horn to the float bowl. Best I can figure is when i rebuilt it years ago the gasket material was thick enough to cover the warped horn or worn edge of the bowl section. The JB repair works just fine but for the warp/wear I need a thicker gasket or a another carb. Found one on ebay for &50 that looks Identical but is a Carter B&B E7T2. The Motors Manual I have only goes up to 1953 so it is not listed. Is this an actual B&B for a later year vehicle? If anyone can give me a heads-up on what the carb went to, I would appreciate it.

 

I ordered it and will rebuild it to use in the P-15 and the other one I will try to rebuild as a spare. With the warp and the JB repair The trust factor has gone down a bit, but it should be a good standby for future carb rebuilds/emergencies. 

 

Joe Lee

[Saskwatch]

7 hours ago, soth122003 said:

Found the leak. It's the gasket connecting the horn to the float bowl. Best I can figure is when i rebuilt it years ago the gasket material was thick enough to cover the warped horn or worn edge of the bowl section. The JB repair works just fine but for the warp/wear I need a thicker gasket or a another carb. Found one on ebay for &50 that looks Identical but is a Carter B&B E7T2. The Motors Manual I have only goes up to 1953 so it is not listed. Is this an actual B&B for a later year vehicle? If anyone can give me a heads-up on what the carb went to, I would appreciate it.

 

I ordered it and will rebuild it to use in the P-15 and the other one I will try to rebuild as a spare. With the warp and the JB repair The trust factor has gone down a bit, but it should be a good standby for future carb rebuilds/emergencies. 

 

Joe Lee

I took an IND 265 motor out of a 1967 Minneapolis Moline combine earlier this summer (with some difficulty) …. It has a Carter B&B E7T2  on it ?

[soth122003]

I got the E7T2 carb in the other day and cleaned it up. Nice thing about these old carbs that sit around not being used is they are usually pretty decent. My old carb had the stripped out threads in the seat area, warped top plate (horn) and the throttle shaft play was over .005 thousandths in play, meaning it sucked air in big time. The E7T2 throttle shaft was tight and had the original brass float (bonus) pulled the horn off and it was a little crusty around the edges and the accelerator pump was shot. I used the rebuild kit I used for the D6G1 carb of mine since they are meant to be used for different B&B carbs and was able to rebuild the new (old) carb. 

 

Installed it and primed with the electric fuel pump and no leaks. started the car and it fired right up. Retimed the distro and set the carb with the vacuum gage and idle is about 500 rpm with the timing mark at 0 degrees an the vacuum at 19 IN. of mercury. I still have a little stumble every few seconds, and the vacuum gage fluctuates between 18.5 and 19. (might be worn piston rings) Since the stumble and the fluctuation is minor I'll let it slide until I do a road test tomorrow. 

 

I have another D6G1 carb coming in to keep the car period correct, but will rebuild it and check it out then swap the E7T2 back in and use it until it dies or I do (which ever comes first LOL).  FYI the E7T2 bolted in directly and I didn't need to modify anything to make it work. The only difference I could see between the two carbs was where the float bowl mounted to the spacer and base of the carb the E7T2 had an extra screw towards the back and there were no extra vacuum ports or fuel flow ports, nothing other than an extra screw mount. My guess is it was modified that way to add structural support to the base area of the carb IMHO. My D6G1 spacer, the right side area where the screw goes thru, had broken ear. 

 

I'll do the road test and burn of some gas and then fix (bend the float arm it's about an inch to high) on the fuel sender as the tank reads between 1/2 and 3/4 with a full tank of gas. I'll update later tomorrow or Saturday.

 

Joe Lee

[Saskwatch]

On 8/31/2023 at 10:46 PM, soth122003 said:

FYI the E7T2 bolted in directly and I didn't need to modify anything to make it work.

Excellent! Thank you for keeping us posted ?

[soth122003]

Much as I hate to beat a dead horse...

 

I installed the E7T2 carb on the P-15 and it worked great at idle and lower rpm. When I got to the high end of the rpm range, no matter what gear, the engine would start to stumble a bit. I'm wondering since this carb is for an industrial use engine, if it is not suited for higher rpm, i.e. the jet will only deliver so much fuel.  At 15mph in 1st stumble, 30-35 in 2nd stumble, 55-60 in 3rd stumble. At 45mph in 3rd it runs good. When I had the D6G1 in when I first got the car and was doing runs on it, at 85mph the engine was screaming (not much soundproofing in the car) and was flying down the highway just fine. Hoping someone here will chime in with thoughts on the matter.

 

I also got the D6G1 replacement from Canada (eh) and it is in great shape. It also came with the Carter external fuel filter. The fuel filter is in good shape as well, but the spring inside is gone. any might know where I can look for a replacement?    I checked Andy's and Rock Auto, Andy didn't have any and Rock only had the springs for an internal carb filter. I can find fuel filters, glass bowls, filters and gaskets, but no springs. Any help to point me in the right direction would be most appreciated.

 

Joe Lee

[Jerry Roberts]

A hardware store ? They usually have an assortment .