It's not fun anymore.

[RNR1957NYer]

2 hours ago, DonaldSmith said:

I kept the guts.  And I have a diagram on how to switch back.  (Pardon the rotation. ) 

I always feared the day that I would have to do so.   I had better do so now, while I am at home, with the car in the garage.  

But first, the timing light, to see if I can detect any irregular pulse. 

 

 

 

As a second generation draftsman, my compliments on your sketch!

[Veemoney]

Just finished dressing and checking the gap on the points in my 47. I heard good and bad on the Pertronix ignition system and have stayed clear of it. I used a number of these type modules on motorcycles with similar results. I found going back to the stock point system eliminated those issues especially on the old kick-start bikes where you pay with sweat equity. Hope it works for you as well as it did for me.

[greg g]

Usually the pertronix failure mode is shut down, no start, no run.  I have heard of nearly a dozen stories of folks driving down the road at the speed limit, then nothing, stranded on the shoulder.

[DonaldSmith]

How about the  Holy Grail, the HEI module?  Do these fail?  Or do you just go to the local auto parts place and swap in a fresh one? or carry  a fresh one in the glove box?  

 

How much does a module cost?  (vs a new Pertronix in the neighborhood of $150.)  

 

I know you need 12 volts for the GM HEI.  I haven't been paying attention to all the posts - why swap in the slant 6 distributor?   Is this a weekend project? 

[Plymouthy Adams]

lots of different folks go different ways on ignition upgrades...some are effective, some are troublesome and some are just too 'rigged' to ever find favor in my eye but can ultimately be configured to work and be less problematic and affordable way beyond the 'roll of the dice' PerTronix where with/when failure if you do not carry a spare module, you stranded for as long as it takes to source and order in.  Shipping these days with many using third party packer/handlers....add 3-5 extra days.  For me, the first is still the first and let you go from there.  

[rallyace]

I will never purchase another Pertronix unit. Several years ago I got stranded in the middle lane of I-81 in my MGB on a Friday of a holiday weekend in rush hour traffic (could it get any worse?). I was lucky as a very astute semi driver noticed that I had immediately lost power and blocked traffic so I could get to the shoulder. Dead Pertronix unit and the jerks at Pertronix took 2 months to confirm it was dead and another month to refund my money. Several folks in our MG club also confirmed that they have had issues with Pertronix. Once upon a time they were great, now they are junk. Points, when properly adjusted and maintained, have worked for decades so there is nothing wrong with having a points ignition.

[Plymouthy Adams]

all failures happed at the worse time it seems...however I do agree, you definitely define 'worse' with that scenario...

[Los_Control]

Just now, DonaldSmith said:

why swap in the slant 6 distributor?   Is this a weekend project? 

Not sure exact date mopar came with electronic ignition .... late 70's .... 1979?

There are several threads here on converting the slant 6 distributor.

 

To oversimplify it, you use the shaft from your flathead distributor & swap it into a electronic slant 6 distributor body.

Your oil pump has a slot for engagement ... slant 6 has gears. So you need to swap the shaft.

 

The body of the slant 6 needs a little massaging to fit, I believe you can do this by hand with sandpaper.

Do your research & read the threads on it. Just suggesting you do not need a machine shop to accomplish this.

 

I plan to buy a spare distributor to donate the shaft, Rockauto you can buy the reman slant 6 for $120.

Will also need the ignition control module to mount on the firewall .... $20

Now if you need a cap/rotor/plug wires .... you can get them from a local parts store .... might have to wait a day if not in stock ..... This photo is for a 1980 Plymouth Volare.

 

 

This is my choice because I have had bad luck with points & condenser quality the last time I changed them.

Was on my Uncles International truck. Went through 3 condensers from Napa, all bad out of the box.

I pulled a used one from a junk engine & it worked fine.

The plastic nub that rides on the cam to open the points .... is made from lesser quality material. As it wears you constantly need to adjust & eventually replace the points.

 

I remember the days of having quality parts, and stopping into a parking lot on my way home from work to re-adjust my points in a 1969 mustang .... just to get home from work. Just a constant ongoing job to maintain the ignition system.

 

Electronic ignition in a flathead will not make it go any faster .... sure does cut down on time spent maintaining the ignition system so you can spend the time elsewhere.

 

[DJ194950]

May I ask a question or two of the people that had the Pertronix Ign. failures?

 

(1) Did you all change to new Resistor spark plugs wires when the unit was installed..

 

(2) Did you use the recommended Ign. coil or one that that had the coil resistance as recommended?.

 

Seems some from past conversations that some things were omitted that need to used.

 

I do know know myself the the Pertronix technical help people do not really seem to want to be definitive about answers to questions presented to them.. Seems the "6 volt" issue is lost on the techs. 

 

Never been a problem to me as all my Pertronix experiences were on 12 volt apps. My own cars (3). No failures -Yet!

 

Also to include about 3-400 change overs on construction rental equipment, forklift, boom lifts, sissorlift in my past life!

 

DJ

[DonaldSmith]

Yesterday sucked - today much better. 

 

Battery run down yesterday and this morning.  Trickle charger not enough.  10A charger this morning did the job. 

This afternoon - car started right up.  Battery condition?  I'll have to keep an eye it. 

 

Still loping intermittently, but on the bright side, the thing keeps running, and runs OK at speed. . 

 

Wet at base of carb? - tightened carb-to-manifold nuts (Bless whoever invented the crows-foot!)  But no change.

 

Staring at the neon light in series with the spark plug, I really couldn't tell if the notorious Pertronix was skipping a beat.  Will try to get the big timing light working.   (I haven't yet put the points back in yet, or decided to buy another P module. ) 

 

Got the stethoscope out and detected exhaust noise at the front of the manifolds and under the car.  To-do-list to include hand-tightening the  manifold nuts and checking the exhaust pipe connections under the car. 

 

Yep, today much better. 

 

[greg g]

Wet carb base usually a symptom  of too high float or needle and seat not closing. This will cause over rich mixture, drowned spark plugs and misfire.  I have had good luck with floats set 2 or 3 32nds lower than factory.  Today's fuel blends expand more and at lower Temps than the stuff of yesteryear causing percolation, raw fuel puddling in the intake,  feels like vapor lock, causes hard starting when hot.

Edited April 28, 2023 by greg g

[DonaldSmith]

At my advanced age, I can still do a day's worth of work.  It just takes me a week or two. 

Been working of the 47 DeSoto.  

Pulled the Pertronix and installed new points and condenser, from Napa.   A conservative approach. 

Installed a Type 2 battery while I was at it.  More cranking power for a few dollars more. 

Verified TDC for No. 1 firing, and got the test light to shut off at a certain position of the distributor. 

A day's work, over the past few weeks. 

Double checked frequently, and found errors requiring frequent re-doing.

 

Light at the end of the tunnel?  I'll find out tomorrow if the engine will start.

Then minor dizzy adjustment for maximum vacuum. 

Then see of the engine still wants to lope, lope, lope.  If so , I'll have another day's work to find the cause.  

 

.    

[DonaldSmith]

Update, of the continuing saga: 

 

When I installed the points and condenser and bench-tested the distributor, at first the points would not complete the circuit.  I pulled some paper between the points and got a closed circuit.  So far, so good. 

 

I installed the distributor, verified  TDC for No. 1 with the rotor pointing at 7:00, tunked the starter till the 5 degree mark was under the pointer.   Double-checked - compression, rotor near 7:00.  Can't be too sure. 

 

Next was the light bulb test.  Distributor wire removed from the coil, and one lead clipped to the wire.  Other lead clipped to a hot source.  No light.  Re-connect the battery, stupid.  Ok, steady light.  Turn the dizzy till the light goes out.  Well, it just sort of dimmed for several tries, occasionally would go completely out like it's supposed to.  

 

I took the distributor out, and checked it with the ohm meter. 

Points closed, Zero.  Good.  

Points open, 1 (infinite resistance, open circuit, good).  

 

I started the car, and it runs like stink; sounds like random misses.  I could put the neon light in series with each plug, but I think it would only confirm the symptom. 

 

This was all to rule out the Pertronix as a cause of the engine loping. 

 

I'm beginning to fear that we'll have to go to the DeSoto Convention this summer without the car.  Not much fun. 

[soth122003]

I don't know if you have already done this, but did you thoroughly check out the carb? Sounds more like a fuel issue than distributer. Of course with the luck you seem to be having it might be both, which can really add to troubleshooting woes.

 

To one of your previous questions I had a Pertronix install with the resistor wires and the flamethrower coil. Worked great until 2 months after the warranty ran out then quit. Went back to points and only had the usual maintanence issues. Points file fixed that though.

 

Joe Lee

[Los_Control]

I will toss something out of left field.

Watching a youtube vid today where a guy been having issues with a new Holley tunnel ram duel sniper throttle bodies .... on a 1956 chebby.

 

Nothing to do with you.

 

While he is figuring things out, he realizes his original 1956 ignition switch with many things connected to it, is losing connection. Causing major issues ..... just more pronounced for him because of EFI.

 

Only suggesting, maybe run a different wire from your coil to hot instead of through the ignition switch.

Possible your ignition switch is acting weird?

 

[keithb7]

If you are in hurry under time constraints, you may want to consider shot-gunning parts. I've been know to do such a thing in in my younger years. "Don't know why or how I fixed it. I just kept dumping new parts at it 'till the problem was cured". Lol. Also known as "spray & pray". 

 

What about building a by-pass/test wire. Get a piece 12 ga or so insulated wire. 20 ft or so long. Solder alligator clips to each end. Then you can clip it to your ignition switch. It'll stay there hands-free. Then run it out the car drivers door and into the engine compartment if needed.  Clip it to the coil input. You can run multiple different tests. Use it to clip to the coil out, then to the distributor input. Also clip it from hot 6V at ammeter to your input of ignition switch. You can maybe work around a possible bad wire and isolate it.

 

Between this little jumper wire, a digital multi-meter, and a little time, you will solve this.

I have thrown distributors in cars that were way-out of time. Between major and minor distributor adjustments, I can get them to fire and run pretty quickly.

 

If I was near-by I'd surely come and help you get your Desoto running for the upcoming convention.

 

I use the tester lead wire mentioned for a ton for projects. Quick and easy for the process of elimination when troubleshooting electrical problems. Just last week my A/C compressor on my 2006 car was not kicking on. I ran this jumper wire from the battery directly to the compressor harness. Compressor kicks in. Ok, its not the compressor, we know its good. Onto the next thing.

 

Keith

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by keithb7

[DonaldSmith]

Thanks, guys. 

On the bench, the dizzy works properly.  

Tomorrow I'm going to pursue the issue of the test light staying on dim when the points open.  Weird. 

I'll fun the engine from my remote starter, vs the ignition and starter button circuits, and see what a difference it makes. 

Once I got the thing running, loping and all. I can pursue the carb issues. 

 

I have to tell myself that this thing really isn't so important, in the overall scheme of things.   

 

 

[Los_Control]

I'm just saying some alligator clips & a jumper wire from battery to coil could eliminate the ignition switch being bad.

[vintage6t]

With the points back in and assuming they are gapped even close to spec and same with distributor timing, it should run okay

 

Since it's not, I would just assume for now the distributor setup is close enough and move on to check a few other things.

 

1. It was mentioned some posts back that the carb base was wet. Someone suggested you check the float level. Didn't see a response on that. To do a quick check I'd pull a plug to see if it's fouled/sooty or even just wet with gas. If so that will point back to a possible float issue.

 

2. I didn't see any mention as to the age of the plug wires. They can look okay but not be up to par electrically.

 

One quick test is to run the engine in the dark and look for any spark jumping out of the wires insulation. That would indicate a crack and loss of spark to ground. Also watch the coil wire and dist cap for the same.

 

Another easy test is to pull the plug. With the plug wire still attached ground the plug. Crank the engine and you should see a strong blue spark.  If not you have an upstream issue with the ignition system. Plug wire->cap->rotor->coil wire->coil->points

[DonaldSmith]

My remote starter is a concoction if alligator clips and jumper wires.  Clip to hot source, such as battery cable clamp.  Starter button and clip to solenoid.   Ignition on-off button and clip to coil hot post.  So I can put the neon light on each plug in turn, goose the carb, and so forth.  

 

I'll get the beast running, sort of, and then I'll follow up on the other suggestions. 

Ya, I'm shot-gunning.  Just ordered a NOS breaker plate. 

 

Wish me luck.    

[Kilgore47]

Just throwing this out there with all the other suggestions.  Don't know if you have vacuum wipers but if you do then try disconnecting that hose at the engine and plugging it to see if that helps.

[DonaldSmith]

Making progress (Prog-ress to us Yanks, Long "O" Pro -gress to our northern neighbors.)

 

Distributor installed, remote starting.  Lup,Lup, Lup.  Neon test light on each spark plug, all firing. 

 

Choke plate half open.  Pushed it open, idle increased and smoothed out.   

Bumped accelerator linkage, and the idle speed decreased.  Smooth!

 

Not out of the woods.  Burnt smell and smoke, from the front of the engine.  Fan belts too tight, trying to get the mythical "turn engine by fan belt"?   Should be an easy fix.

 

On to check the choke.  Dang if that's what it is.   But that's the way it's supposed to work.  Cool manifold, choke half closed.  Cranking, choke closes further (or farther?)*  Manifold heats up, chole opens all the way. 

 

A whole list of carb things to check, besides the choke.  But first the fan belts. 

 

I feel better today.  The engine starts right up and runs, despite what I have been doing to it. 

 

*Farther - a matter of distance.  Further - a matter of degree.  In this case maybe it's both. 

[DonaldSmith]

Opened choke, Idle speed INcreased.

[JerseyHarold]

It may have been mentioned previously, but is the little wire inside the distributor touching anything and shorting out?

Kind of from left field, but have you checked the manifold heat control valve for proper operation?

[DonaldSmith]

Breaking News!  See the new thread, "Choke, choke". 

 

I got the points in, got the engine running, lup, lup, lup.  Dang!  But it started easily and ran persistently. 

Next on the list, check the choke. 

The choker rod overshot the fitting for the choke plate by maybe 3/16ths.  Enough. 

I did the thing with the pin at the Sisson shaft, loosened the bolt on the arm, and  made the adjustment. 

Running smooth now.  

 

Maybe when I messed recently with the manifolds, I changed the relationship of the exhaust manifold, with the Sisson on it, and the intake manifold, with the carb  on it.  That should have called for a Sisson check.   

 

Thanks, guys, for all the suggestions for what to check.