Is My Timing Off?

[Bob Riding]

I'm buttoning up the 230 and after doing the initial valve adjust, I indexed the cam and crankshaft timing gears (dot to dot) and installed the chain case cover and the crank pully/hub. The timing marks ion the hub don't index to either #1 or #6 cylinder when at TDC. Is this correct? It seems TDC one one of the cylinders should line up with the 0 mark on the hub? Am I over-thinking this?

[DJ194950]

Wait_  - Trying to do this with the Stupper Bowl on?  Rihanna  show got your eyes crossed?

 

Missed 99.99 % of it myself!

 

More pics?  timing chain marks or you got gears?

 

Valves on #6 appears closed.

 

??

DJ

Edited February 13, 2023 by DJ194950

[OUTFXD]

Try rotating the engine 360 degrees.  the timing spins at 1/2 the rpm of the engine

[MarcDeSoto]

It seems that no. 1 cylinder should have both valves shut and the piston at the top when the timing mark is at TDC.  Something does seem wrong.  Keith would be a good one to chime in on this.  Is there any way the timing pulley was put on wrong?  

[OUTFXD]

Piston has to reach TDC twice per revolution of the  distributor/cam (Exhaust stroke, Compression stroke)  it is possible to reach TDC #1 and have the timing out 180 degees

 

p.s. Hope this makes sense, My mind is pretty cloudy today

Edited February 13, 2023 by OUTFXD

[Merle Coggins]

If the TDC mark is aligned with the pointer with the pistons in that position then there is certainly something wrong. Most likely a mismatched, or damaged, damper/pulley. If you lined up your crank and cam sprockets dot to dot then both #1 and #6 pistons should be at TDC and the valves on #6 should be closed (as I recall). You may want to remove the damper and cover to verify this, then recheck the alignment of the pulley/damper again without rotating the crankshaft. 

[vintage6t]

Can't tell from the picture and I don't think it does, but does the outer part of the hub with the timing marks have a rubber insert between it and the inner part of the hub where the bolt holes are? Like a more modern vibration damper?

 

If so it's possible the outer hub has slipped position in relation to the inner hub. That would throw the timing marks off but not the actual timing. The only thing that counts is the alignment of the crank and cam sprockets on the timing set. Do you have a picture of the installed sprockets?

 

Another thought along the same lines, is it possible your pointer mounted in the wrong place? 

Edited February 13, 2023 by vintage6t

[Sniper]

10 hours ago, DJ194950 said:

Valves on #6 appears closed.

True, but the piston is nowhere to be seen, probably at BDC, which means his cam is 180 out.

 

You are supposed to have number 1 at TDC then line up the dots on the cam.

[Bob Riding]

So I set #1 at TDC. The 0 timing mark on the hub/pulley is at the 2 o clock position - should be at 12 o clock, correct?

 

I removed the cam gear (which was 180 degrees out- the dot was at 12'o clock) then reinstalled it at 6 'o clock position, lined up with the crank gear dot, and realized that the three mounting holes on the cam gear do not align with the mounting holes on the cam. Not sure how to proceed. 

[vintage6t]

Try this. With #1 TDC, I'd take the chain off, put the cam gear on without the chain so it's aligned properly with the bolt holes and put the bolts in it. Now spin the cam and gear to align the dot with the  crank dot. # 1 valves should be closed. Carefully remove the cam gear without moving the cam and put the chain on. 

[Merle Coggins]

At #1 / #6 TDC the cam mark will either be right next to the crank gear mark, or directly across from it. In one position the #1 valves will be closed (#1 TDC Compression stroke) and in the other position the #6 valves will be closed (#6 TDC Compression stroke). Remember, the crank turns 2 complete revolutions for each revolution of the cam. Either way the marks should be lined up with the center lines of the 2 shafts when #1 and #6 are at TDC. 

 

If the pully mark is at 2 O'Clock with #1 and #6 at TDC then either, as stated in another post, the damper outer ring has slipped in relation to the inner hub, or this damper/pulley is made to work with a front cover that has the pointer at the 2 O'Clock position. 

[Sniper]

You need to rotate the cam to align with the mounting holes.  And I don't recall if the mounting holes that bolt the damper to the hub are symmetrical or not, but if they are you probably have the damper rotated one hole's worth to far CW.

[Dodgeb4ya]

The Flat head MoPar six bolt damper will only bolt on one way.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Dodgeb4ya

[keithb7]

Over the decades its hard to know what really happened to our engines.  Perhaps someone needed a crank pulley. Found one that would fit and went with it.  
 

Did this engine run before you took it apart? If so did you happen to take a timing light to it, to check the timing while it was running? 

 

Someone mentioned the harmonic balancer may have slipped.  Not all mopars have harmonic balancer type pulleys. Some are just solid pulleys. Are there signs of torn rubber when you look at the pulley? I ran out to check my spare harmonic type pulley. The rubber is old, and crumbling. Easily chunked out with an o-ring pick.  Seems now I should just throw it out. It will fail. 
 

With #1 at TDC compression stroke the marking on the pulley should be at the pointer.  If you’re dead sure that you got the cam timing right, matched with crank positioning, you may need to make a new mark on the crank pulley if you plan to re-use it.  Either that or move your pointer. Lol. I’ll wager its easier to draw a new line on the pulley. 
 

The line on the pulley to the pointer is a visual reference as to what’s going on with ignition timing. Its not a show-stopper.   By the time you have this engine running and tuned you won’t need visual references to set the ignition timing. You’ll know by how it starts, idles, pings and drives. ?

 

You’ve just got to be sure you have set your cam to crank timing right. That is indeed a show stopper. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by keithb7

[Sniper]

https://damperdoctor.com

 

They can rebuild your damper, if needed.

[keithb7]

2 minutes ago, Sniper said:

https://damperdoctor.com

 

They can rebuild your damper, if needed.

Cool. I didn’t know you that was an option! 

[Bob Riding]

Thanks for the timing advice. I think I've got that sorted, and it now seems the problem is a loose damper. The engine is from a '56 Plymouth - it ran well, but I never tried to time it. I am rebuilding it because it had a what we thought was a wrist pin issue. My '56 damper/pulley looks a bit different that the one in @keithb7's video. The damper and pulley are separate parts and the damper can rotate freely, but it doesn't seem to be removable. If I take a pry bar and pry the apart, the damper becomes tight against the front of the hub, but then there is a gap between pulley and damper, which I've never seen on a running motor. There doesn't seem to be any old rubber anywhere, or a way to fix the damper to the hub, except a pressure fit by prying them apart. Damper Doctor to the rescue?

[Dave72dt]

Really obvious from your last 3 pics that the dampener has failed and needs to be replaced.

[Bob Riding]

27 minutes ago, Dave72dt said:

Really obvious from your last 3 pics that the dampener has failed and needs to be replaced.

I wonder what the eBay availability is? I've never looked for this part. I wouldn't think that the usual suspects (Roberts, AB, Moparpro, etc) would carry dampers.

[9 foot box]

   I’ve had two damper pulley’s rebuilt by hbrepair.com. Any used pulley would be aged. Check Dave’s web site, and you decide.  Rick D.

[Dave72dt]

Post it in the forum's classified section.  Has to be someone here that has a scrapped out engine.   Good news is you can continue with short block assembly including oil pump, distributor while locating a dampener.

[MarcDeSoto]

There's a guy in San Diego who is selling or parting out a 52 Plymouth engine.  $300 for the engine.  

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/392133-complete-engine-tranny-1952-plymouth-p23-for-sale-or-part-out/#comment-2488638

[Bob Riding]

48 minutes ago, Dave72dt said:

Post it in the forum's classified section.  Has to be someone here that has a scrapped out engine.   Good news is you can continue with short block assembly including oil pump, distributor while locating a dampener.

Done, good suggestion, Thanks!

[Bob Riding]

10 minutes ago, MarcDeSoto said:

There's a guy in San Diego who is selling or parting out a 52 Plymouth engine.  $300 for the engine.  

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/392133-complete-engine-tranny-1952-plymouth-p23-for-sale-or-part-out/#comment-2488638

 thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately it's local pickup only for parts. I wonder how much difference there is between models (201/218/230) and years?

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, Bob Riding said:

 thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately it's local pickup only for parts. I wonder how much difference there is between models (201/218/230) and years?

 

I've had 4 different 218/230s in the last couple of years.  50/51 and 56 years.  Only the 56 Plymouth had the dampener type pulley.  The others are one piece, no dampener ring at all.  They fit, but don't have that function.