motoMark Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 As the rear axle seal job on my 51 Cambridge snowballs into brake shoes, rebuilding wheel cylinders and new axle bearings, I find myself needing a new master cylinder. When I took the cap off the MC to start bleeding the rear brakes I found the fluid to be pretty nasty looking. Ok, so I'll also flush the system. But I thought, maybe I ought to pull the MC and go through it just to make sure it's ok too. Unfortunately it is not. Besides being very grungy, the bore has significant pitting on the bottom side (no doubt due to water in the system) and there is a pretty deep score in the center. Knowing it probably won't make it good again, I ran a hone through it just for kicks. Too far gone. Strangely enough, the brakes seemed to work ok last summer (I bought the car in July) despite the carnage I found in the system. I'm going to call White Post to see how much the charge to bore and sleeve it, but I'm also exploring buying new. AB has them for $150 and Rock Auto has both an AC Delco and Raybestos for about $180. Anyone have experience with the Rock Auto MCs? Thanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 I have never been a fan of single chamber master cylinders. A leak anywhere in the system means a failure of the entire system. There have been several threads here on updating to a more modern dual chamber setup, way cheaper too. If that's something you'd consider now is the time to do it. Something more along what you asked in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris 48 P15 Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 i bought master cylinder from ab the shaft would not fit ended up rebuilding old one with parts from both master cylinders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allbizz49 Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 All of my dailys have single masters. The newest being a 1959. Been up and down the coast, the hills and all through the valley without any problems., We'll over 10,000 miles annually. You'll be fine with the stock master. Good luck. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan G Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 I bought my master cylinder & all wheel cylinders from Rock Auto. I think it's a fairly safe bet that there is only one factory over in China cranking them out, and putting them in different colored boxes. I didn't have any real issues with any of those parts-they all worked. Part of me wanted to go the White Post route just for that tiny extra bit of originality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcDeSoto Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 Just don't send in your old MC for the $15 core charge. A new one doesn't include some much needed parts that no one sells, like the push rod and the steel plug on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy 46R Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 When I redid my brakes a year ago I got the MC from Rock Auto. Everything fit and it has worked fine for the last 2100 miles I drove this year. My only dislike, and it may have changed recently, was the Rock Auto material said made in USA but the MC said China. Enjoy your travels especially now that you will be able to stop whenever you want! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 9 hours ago, Bryan G said: I bought my master cylinder & all wheel cylinders from Rock Auto. I think it's a fairly safe bet that there is only one factory over in China cranking them out, and putting them in different colored boxes. I didn't have any real issues with any of those parts-they all worked. Part of me wanted to go the White Post route just for that tiny extra bit of originality. and that tiny bit of wanting hopefully led you to placing these aside for sending out to be sleeved and then go back with problem free liners and originals stock materials and appearances, likely some additional peace of mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 10 hours ago, allbizz49 said: All of my dailys have single masters. The newest being a 1959. Been up and down the coast, the hills and all through the valley without any problems., We'll over 10,000 miles annually. You'll be fine with the stock master. Good luck. All it takes is once and you will never say that again. I had that once happen to me in 1993 and your parking brake won't unclench your cheeks either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeRoy Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sniper said: All it takes is once and you will never say that again. I had that once happen to me in 1993 and your parking brake won't unclench your cheeks either. A lotta folks talk about what happens if you blow a line or wheel cylinder, I wonder how many have failed over time that resulted in an accident? I'd like to be safe and go to duals some day, in the mean time I'm keeping all components new and driving like I'm sitting in a 70 year old car/truck. I'd love it if a manufacturer (or supplier) put together a kit that would make the change straightforward and safe. My bigger safety concern at the moment is steering. I think I need to rebuild both steering boxes and I'm not sure that's all my trouble. My sedan has some bump steer that bring some serious pucker factor if it happens in just the wrong conditions. I put shocks on it recently and radials but that only helped a little. I think I've seen some folks talk about relocating shock mount points in the front. I have new king pins/bushings and tie rod ends but the balance of the front suspension is original (I think). I received the seatbelts for my sedan to be installed pretty soon, based on how that goes I'll add them to the pickup as well. I plan to let my kids ride in the sedan and I gotta do what I can to make that as safe as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer-X- Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 14 hours ago, motoMark said: Rock Auto has both an AC Delco and Raybestos for about $180. Anyone have experience with the Rock Auto MCs? I have bought master cylinders (several, for different modern cars) from RockAuto.com and got exactly what was advertised at a great price. The "name brands" like AC Delco and Raybestos were always genuine parts from the named source, never counterfeits. The only issues I've ever had with RockAuto were with "private label" parts on "wholesale closeout" deals. Those are a total crap shoot. About a third of the time, I get just about what they claim it is (or equal quality at least), about half the time, it's misidentified and crap. And the remaining times it's been misidentified, but when I did identify it, it was better than advertised, sometimes a lot better than advertised. For the stuff that was crap, I contacted them through the refund/return process on their web site and submitted pics and often pdfs of printed emails from the company they claimed made it which explained why this wasn't made by them, and I got a refund. Usually I got to keep the part because they didn't think it was worth the shipping to get it back, but it went in my scrap metal bin. If I have time and I feel lucky, I'll still buy some of that "private label, wholesale closeout" stuff, but if I need it soon, I'll stick with the known name brands. If I need it now, there's Napa and the other national change FLAPS, but that costs extra, and often it costs a lot extra, even when you factor in shipping from RA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Buchanan Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 22 hours ago, allbizz49 said: All of my dailys have single masters. The newest being a 1959. Been up and down the coast, the hills and all through the valley without any problems., We'll over 10,000 miles annually. You'll be fine with the stock master. Good luck. My personal database includes a near-catastrophe decades ago in my 1964 VW Beetle. A brake line gave way near the conclusion of a vigorous stop and we rolled out into an intersection with no brake pedal pressure. Fortunately the mom in the big American iron saw me in time to nearly get stopped before the bumper caved in my door. If she wasn't so attentive it's likely I wouldn't be in this discussion today. The master cylinder isn't the problem....it's all the lines, connections, and wheel cylinders. If just one of them fails you have zero brakes. A dual-chamber cylinder will leave you with some measure of brakes in the other circuit. In the olden days it was just single chamber and those brakes usually worked fine. But we have better/safer options today. It's a personal choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allbizz49 Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 I get it, some people want a safety net. Why not ABS, airbags, seat belts, back up cameras lane shift warnings, and bells and buzzers? How about heated seats and mirrors? The question was about a stock type master, not suggestions about modernizing an older car. Me personally, I drive old cars because I like OLD cars. I like the way they brake, I like the way they steer, I just like everything about them. If you want safety, buy a Camry. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kencombs Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said: My personal database includes a near-catastrophe decades ago in my 1964 VW Beetle. A brake line gave way near the conclusion of a vigorous stop and we rolled out into an intersection with no brake pedal pressure. Fortunately the mom in the big American iron saw me in time to nearly get stopped before the bumper caved in my door. If she wasn't so attentive it's likely I wouldn't be in this discussion today. The master cylinder isn't the problem....it's all the lines, connections, and wheel cylinders. If just one of them fails you have zero brakes. A dual-chamber cylinder will leave you with some measure of brakes in the other circuit. In the olden days it was just single chamber and those brakes usually worked fine. But we have better/safer options today. It's a personal choice. Mi I've seen and repaired any number of problems that will empty a reservoir in short order. Most on customer cars but some of mine. Rusted brake line, leaky hoses, cup and piston failures, and my favorite both front lines and shocks broken at the same time! My 16 year old self hit a ditch hard enough to bounce a 54 Coronet high enough to do that. Obviously the brakes were the first thing I engaged when the bounce stopped. Boy, was I surprised when the pedal fell to the floor. I've even had a dual totally fail when one line broke. Mitsubishi tilt cab truck with disk front drum rear. New to me but used with a lot of miles. All was fine until the front line rusted and broke. Seems the rears were so out of adjustment that they wouldn't stop it by themselves. My gets a dual. Cheaper than a stock so why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motoMark Posted January 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 Thanks for all your advice and many opinions. While I fully understand the safety advantage of having a dual master, I find myself wanting to keep the brake system original. Maybe someday I'll convert to a dual MC setup, but for now I will keep the original single. Instead of buying a new MC, I've decided to have mine sleeved and will be sending it to Brake & Equipment in Minneapolis Sleeving Master Cylinders, Wheel Cylinders, and Piston Calipers - Brake & Equipment Warehouse (brakeandequipment.com) The cost is $120.00, which I think is reasonable. For comparison sake, I called White Post and they only offer a complete rebuild (not just sleeving) for $225.00. Not a bad price, but I already have a rebuild kit. Apple Hydraulic charges $145.00 for sleeving only and $245.00 for a complete rebuild. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 25 minutes ago, motoMark said: Thanks for all your advice and many opinions. While I fully understand the safety advantage of having a dual master, I find myself wanting to keep the brake system original. Maybe someday I'll convert to a dual MC setup, but for now I will keep the original single. Instead of buying a new MC, I've decided to have mine sleeved and will be sending it to Brake & Equipment in Minneapolis Sleeving Master Cylinders, Wheel Cylinders, and Piston Calipers - Brake & Equipment Warehouse (brakeandequipment.com) The cost is $120.00, which I think is reasonable. For comparison sake, I called White Post and they only offer a complete rebuild (not just sleeving) for $225.00. Not a bad price, but I already have a rebuild kit. Apple Hydraulic charges $145.00 for sleeving only and $245.00 for a complete rebuild. I've been to brake and equipment many times- you'll be happy with your MC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motoMark Posted January 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2023 Today I received my sleeved master cylinder back from Brake & Equipment Warehouse. The turnaround time was much quicker than estimated and it looks great. I never thought to ask them what material the sleeve is, but it appears to be steel (not sure if stainless or not). Overall I'm very pleased with their work and service, though the return shipping charge was a little high I thought. Hopefully everything works fine after I get it put back together. Here are some pics of before and after. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerJon Posted January 28, 2023 Report Share Posted January 28, 2023 Looks great! I had a spare done at White post, almost a year ago, but haven't installed it yet. I have to say I was a little frustrated working with them. I had requested them to sleeve it down to 1 inch. Called and confirmed they could and would. Sent it in, guy called and I explained again why I wanted it a reduced diameter, and which cars would have the correct kit for the rebuild (power brake early 50s desoto) and guy says OK. Part shows up, looks great, but paperwork says 1 1/8 bore. I call, talk to guy again, and he basically says I am stupid for trying to change it, and he didn't have the right kit anyway, and where do I think he would even get a kit like that? Maybe I will try Brake & Equipment for my wheel cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdaisy19k Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 On 1/12/2023 at 9:29 PM, allbizz49 said: I get it, some people want a safety net. Why not ABS, airbags, seat belts, back up cameras lane shift warnings, and bells and buzzers? How about heated seats and mirrors? The question was about a stock type master, not suggestions about modernizing an older car. Me personally, I drive old cars because I like OLD cars. I like the way they brake, I like the way they steer, I just like everything about them. If you want safety, buy a Camry. A fine opinion. Let it be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Douglas Posted February 1, 2023 Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 On 1/12/2023 at 5:36 AM, Sniper said: All it takes is once and you will never say that again. I had that once happen to me in 1993 and your parking brake won't unclench your cheeks either. Sniper, I agree with you but only to a point. I have used a single MC on the big Desoto for 22 years on the hills here in San Francisco. I also have them in all my other cars. I have only had one failure in a brake system in 45 years. After I purchased the '47, I had a leaking right rear wheels cylinder. I purchased a new one from NAPA. I put it in and about 3 months later it failed completely. it was a Sunday AM and I was heading down a hill from UCSF. A BIG hill here in San Francisco. Lucky it was so early as I mushed through a 4 way stop with the parking brake. Turns out that the wheel cylinder seal had a manufacturing defect. Something was in the mold and created a "channel" 98% of the way across the seal contact area. After a few months the seal wore in and that "channel" opened up. it could not seal. So, if one really ways the extra security then by all means switch to a duel MC solution. But, if one personally rebuilds each component and stays on top of the maintenance themselves then I would not be that worried about using a single. I mean, the statistical odds of a total failure are probably much lower then the statistical odds of some ***** hitting us in our cars without seat belts or crumple zones and getting hurt or killed form that. It is all about relative risk and knowing which to worry about. Now all that said, on the newly purchased 1964 Chrysler 300K I am replacing the single with a dual. Why? because I suspect that Sondra will be using it a lot and she does not have the "feel" if something is wrong like I do. It also is a direct bolt on on that car and I need a new master on it with a rebuilt power booster in any event. James 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eneto-55 Posted February 1, 2023 Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 I have had brake failures on three vehicles, and the one on the single cylinder 72 Dodge was the least serious. (I was still able to drive it the two hours home from Columbus. That was a master cylinder failure - leaking past the piston. I just kept stopping along the way and adding more fluid. So it was not a "total failure".) The other two were burst brake lines going to the rear. A 2000 Chrysler T&C, where the pedal just suddenly went to the floor when I backed out of an uphill parking spot in our little town. I was able to drive home, but I wouldn't have trusted it to go out on the state highway. The last one was a 98 S-10, and that same line rusted in two twice. I was able to drive it home using the emergency brake (a much longer distance in that case), because it no longer locked down. Come to think of it, I had a brake line on the front of that PU burst as well. The main thing I don't like about the idea of switching to a double piston on the 46 is that I don't want it on the fire wall, and I'm still not impressed with what has to be done to mount one underneath. Maybe will see if it is possible to mount two standard MCs side by side, probably with the second staggered back a bit. (Probably should be saying this, because I've never looked at it with this idea in mind, and I'm not enough of an engineer to know what the repercussions would be.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Buchanan Posted February 1, 2023 Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 17 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said: The main thing I don't like about the idea of switching to a double piston on the 46 is that I don't want it on the fire wall, and I'm still not impressed with what has to be done to mount one underneath. Maybe will see if it is possible to mount two standard MCs side by side, probably with the second staggered back a bit. (Probably should be saying this, because I've never looked at it with this idea in mind, and I'm not enough of an engineer to know what the repercussions would be.) Wow....that would take some serious engineering and be much more complex than using a dual-chamber Wilwood or similar. I do have experience with two Wilwood masters in combination, that is what I installed on my Stalker kit car. They required a walking beam balance bar to achieve proper front/rear bias. But I have no interest in trying something like that under the P15 floor with the combination cylinder/pedal mounts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted February 1, 2023 Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 2 hours ago, James_Douglas said: Now all that said, on the newly purchased 1964 Chrysler 300K I am replacing the single with a dual. Coincidentally enough, one of my single pot brake failures was in a 64 300. In this case I tore the end off the parking brake cable when I stomped on the pedal to stop the car from going into a swamp. So I had to take a hard 90 at about 30mph to save it, then down shift my way to a stop. the other was in a 63 Bel Air, I just put it in park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcDeSoto Posted February 1, 2023 Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 I've never had a brake failure on any car. I've have a wheel cylinder leak, but it gave me plenty of time to fix it before I had no brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Douglas Posted February 2, 2023 Report Share Posted February 2, 2023 21 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said: Wow....that would take some serious engineering and be much more complex than using a dual-chamber Wilwood or similar. I do have experience with two Wilwood masters in combination, that is what I installed on my Stalker kit car. They required a walking beam balance bar to achieve proper front/rear bias. But I have no interest in trying something like that under the P15 floor with the combination cylinder/pedal mounts! I actually tried this approach on the 1949 Desoto Convertible. Due to the "X" member I had to use a much longer rod from the pedal to the MC's than we have seen with this approach. We sourced Chrome Molly rod with a mill certificate and made the rod with stainless rod ends, bushed holes and precision shoulder bolts. The problem was that the brake had way to mushy a feel. Even with it over engineered there was just too much flex. I tossed it out and went back to a single stick MC feeding the remote midland ross power booster. Now for the 1947 Desoto Suburban, I have down in the shop the bracket from the frame rail (junk yard) and I am going to make up a jig and figure out how to make a custom bracket to take a remote tandem master cylinder that has the clutch and brake pedal in their exact factory locations. I will not get to this until late spring or summer. Of course when I do, I will make up a PDF with all the information. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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