1948 Chrysler Royal problems with ignition

[colbs]

I have a 1948 Chrysler Royal that I've been restoring since 2019 thats about 97% all original. Last year I replaced the dash and engine wires with a harness from RIW bc the car started having problems starting (points, condenser, and ignition coil had already been replaced) and the car was running again but my brakes had a catastrophic failure and I had to down the car again and then it started dead celling 6V batteries (4 in a year) I decided to go to the starter next and check all connections there and ensuring proper wiring and connections. I pulled the starter and cleaned all 4 posts on the solenoid and put the starter back in, when I hook the battery up positive ground the engine starts immediately turning over with the switch off and the keys in my pocket, ive done every configuration of the wires on the solenoid and it still turns over with no key in the switch, I did find a 6V positive ground solid state ignition and put it in and when it was completely unhooked the motor still turned over, any ideas or guidance is appreciated!

[MarcDeSoto]

So it turns over but it doesn't start right?  Sounds like you have a bad starter button switch.  In other words, it's always connected.  I've never heard of that kind of problem.  Something is not turning off the battery power to the solenoid, probably the starter button.  Also, to avoid battery problems, I always disconnect my ground cable (positive) from the battery when the car is not in use as a safety precaution.  Also the starter motor has nothing to do with the keys in your pocket.  The keys are for the ignition.  The starter has a separate button switch.  Sounds like it's not opening when your finger is off of it.  

Edited January 7, 2023 by MarcDeSoto

[joecoozie]

 

 

 

 

[colbs]

50 minutes ago, MarcDeSoto said:

So it turns over but it doesn't start right?  Sounds like you have a bad starter button switch.  In other words, it's always connected.  I've never heard of that kind of problem.  Something is not turning off the battery power to the solenoid, probably the starter button.  Also, to avoid battery problems, I always disconnect my ground cable (positive) from the battery when the car is not in use as a safety precaution.  Also the starter motor has nothing to do with the keys in your pocket.  The keys are for the ignition.  The starter has a separate button switch.  Sounds like it's not opening when your finger is off of it.  

I didn't think of the button being the issue at all ill definitely give that a shot! I did not mention earlier (your mention of the keys being only for the ignition part reminded me) that before I put in the solid state ignition I wasn't getting any spark out if the distributor except intermittently and only if you were opening the points with a screwdriver and that was the reasoning for the solid state after I had already replaced the wiring harness.

[SteveR]

Check continuity on the starter switch. should not have a reading. Then depress it it should change.

Do you have 6vdc from the start switch when at rest? Should be 0vdc

Possible stuck contacts on your starter relay

[colbs]

23 minutes ago, joecoozie said:

 

 

 

 

My automatic choke is hooked up to the short post on starter solenoid 

[colbs]

1 minute ago, SteveR said:

Check continuity on the starter switch. should not have a reading. Then depress it it should change.

Do you have 6vdc from the start switch when at rest? Should be 0vdc

Possible stuck contacts on your starter relay

Will any starter button work or does it have to be a 6V specific? I know 6 and 8 volts are interchangeable and somethings but I know 12v doesn't crossover and I've never dealt with push button start and tbh was kinda blown away when I learned the car had push button

[colbs]

Here is one of my most recent pictures from earlier in the year last year. Taken the day before it cut out on me on the way ti a car show ?

[SteveR]

2 hours ago, colbs said:

Will any starter button work or does it have to be a 6V specific? I know 6 and 8 volts are interchangeable and somethings but I know 12v doesn't crossover and I've never dealt with push button start and tbh was kinda blown away when I learned the car had push button

You first need to see if your starter button is working properly using a meter I mentioned earlier.

With key 'on' you should have 6vdc to the button but not on the other side until you press the button. If you have voltage on both sides you have a bad button

Lets start there

[colbs]

@SteveR I'll check the continuity, I was just asking about the button bc it'll be Monday before I can work on it again and if it was bad I would just go buy one and put it in and then update on here

[Los_Control]

I can think of several reasons why I would want to have a extra push button around for different future projects. I personally do not think picking one up is a bad idea.

My riding mower starts with a push button.

 

It is possible that is part of your problem, for the engine to start with the keys in your pocket tells me the wiring is wrong.

May be possible the incorrect wiring burned up your push button?

 

I would go back through the ignition switch wiring & correct it before installing your new push button.

Maybe someone with more knowledge on the ignition wiring can explain which wires to look at .... sounds like your switch is bypassed.

[keithb7]

9 hours ago, colbs said:

My automatic choke is hooked up to the short post on starter solenoid 

In the color wiring image posted earlier:

Look at the ignition wiring. See the red wire from the ammeter to the ignition switch. This is hot, live 6V from the battery. It is connected to the input side of your ignition switch. When the the ignition switch if off, 6V does not flow out past the switch via the green dotted line to the coil, nor the black dotted line to (hard to see diagram is cut off) the starter solenoid. If you have power leaving the key switch, with the ignition turned off and key in your pocket, you may have an incorrectly wired system.  Of you could have a bad wire worn though somewhere. Touching something it shouldn't be. You'll need a digital multi-meter and be able to read the wiring layout diagram to troubleshoot and find your problem.

 

The Sisson auto-choke is supposed to be hooked up to the 6V wire feeding the starter. The choke is given a shot of 6V only while the starter is cranking. In your case, while the starter solenoid is excited. The 6V activates the internal coil within the choke and cycles the choke to close. The choke does not need steady voltage to remain closed. The linkage is designed to hold the choke plate closed until the manifold get hots, and heats up the bimetallic spring inside the choke. Then choke starts to open again As soon as you let off the starter cranking button, the voltage to the starter is cut-off.  Also cutting the 6V to the choke. In theory the engine is now running because you aren't applying the starter anymore.  So you likely have no problems related to the choke.

 

You can do the trial and error thing. Remove a wire at the starter button. Hook up your battery again. Does starter still start cranking over? Then it's not the push button its likely the steady 6V being fed to the start solenoid from somewhere.  Start by removing 1 wire at a time at the solenoid and try hooking up battery again to find which wire is feeding steady 6V to the solenoid. Rinse and repeat hooking wires back up and removing wires 1 at a time at starter solenoid to isolate the delinquent wire.  Its definitely an easier and quicker process if you have a digital multi-meter. You can also check wires for continuity to ground, or end to end to learn exactly what the wires are or aren't doing, or where they are hooked up. Then compare to the wiring layout diagram.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by keithb7

[Dave72dt]

Make it real simple by pulling the small wires off the starter.  If the starter then turns over, you have a starter/solenoid problem.  If it doesn't, you already have the small wires isolated for locating the wire that's turning the solenoid on.

[MarcDeSoto]

One thing you didn't mention is when the starter is on, does the engine start if you turn on the ignition with the key?  

[MarcDeSoto]

20 hours ago, joecoozie said:

 

 

 

 

Joe, where can I get one of these color coded wiring diagrams for my 48 DeSoto.  48 Chrysler 6 would be about the same.  Thanks.  

[joecoozie]

I found that one online.

Maybe you can buy one on other sites

[colbs]

6 hours ago, MarcDeSoto said:

One thing you didn't mention is when the starter is on, does the engine start if you turn on the ignition with the key?  

No it does not start, that was the main reason for pulling the starter out and checking connections and checking to see if there was any visible damage in the solenoid 

Edited January 8, 2023 by colbs

[SteveR]

9 hours ago, MarcDeSoto said:

Joe, where can I get one of these color coded wiring diagrams for my 48 DeSoto.  48 Chrysler 6 would be about the same.  Thanks.  

You should have one. At least last march you said you have one.

 

[desoto1939]

So on my 39 Desoto I have the armored cable that comes from the ignition switch and runs to the coil. When you turn the key on the ign switch on the sah all it does is complete the circuit to the coil. I then have to press the floor starter rod to engage the stater motor into the flywheel.

 

So does you car have the armored able or does it just have a wire running from the ignition switch to the push button switch onthe dah.  The car should not start when the keys are in your pocket and the starter button should not beable to start the car.  So you might have a wire issue with the switch always being hot. If you have this situtation then how do you shut down the engine when you come home? They ignition key has to be turned off to cut the power feed for the car. So start with this area you might have wires crossed.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Dodgeb4ya]

Pull the two small wires off the top too stud posts...hook the battery cable up and see if the starter still wants to crank the engine....keys in your pocket too.

Report back.

Note...solenoids on these cars are some what troublesome with age....proper knowledgable repairs will fix them for years.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Dodgeb4ya

[Tom Skinner]

Colbs,

On ebay now for $9.99 is a Remanufactured SS4703 Starter Selenoid. Buy it. The SS4705 on your MAX4050 Starter can use the guts out of the SS4703.

The only difference is the bracket on the SS4703 is canted differently than the SS4705.

Or: On ebay once again a Remanufactured SS4705 is for sale for $250. If your Starter Selenoid is Bad you cannot beat these price now adays.

Ebay: Type in 1948 Chrysler: browse for or type in 1948 Chrysler Starter Selenoid.

Good Luck

Tom

PS. Those windind]gs in those Selenoids are Rare as Hen's Teeth.

[MarcDeSoto]

15 hours ago, SteveR said:

You should have one. At least last march you said you have one.

No, I don't have one like the one you showed.  Yes, I have a homemade one, but wanted the professionally made one too.  Marc.

 

[colbs]

It appears that it is the solenoid, I did as Dave suggested and unhooked the small wires and hooked the battery back up and it still turned over. @Tom Skinner is it possible for you to share the link for the starter solenoids you mentioned? I'm not finding them. 

Also if anyone knows what I need to check inside my current solenoid or possibly how to fix a failed solenoid I'm open to trying my hand at rebuilding it if that's even feasible 

[MarcDeSoto]

I took my starter motor and solenoid into an auto electric shop and they rebuilt it cheaply.  But that was 40 years ago.  I just got it out of the box and put it on my car and it works great.  Maybe try to find a shop that rebuilds starters?  

[SteveR]

12 hours ago, colbs said:

Also if anyone knows what I need to check inside my current solenoid or possibly how to fix a failed solenoid I'm open to trying my hand at rebuilding it if that's even feasible 

I have never opened up one of these but have on machinery. They are all basically the same. You have an electromagnet that when energized pulls in a set of contacts. after the coil has collapsed (de-energized) there is a spring that opens the contacts. I suspect the contacts are welded shut or there is gunk preventing them to open. A broken spring is also a possibility. They are simple devices and worth a try to repair yours.