master cylinder...new or old

[uncleaud]

Looking for opinions. I have replaced all of my brake system and now have to decide on replacing the master cylinder with an original or using it as a bracket and going with a new style master cylinder. Either way can work for me, are there any advantages to the new MC other than the dual chamber. Is the old style sufficient and reliable? Thanks

[Sniper]

53 minutes ago, uncleaud said:

are there any advantages to the new MC other than the dual chamber.

 

Cheaper

53 minutes ago, uncleaud said:

Is the old style sufficient and reliable?

 

Sufficient for stock, yes.  Reliability is going to depend more on the care it gets, i.e. brake fluid flushes.

 

[uncleaud]

any opinions or experience as to which new style is the best fit?

[Sniper]

Best fit?  the original style, no fab needed. 

 

If you want to retrofit a dual chamber style there are multiple threads on that here, some very recent.  It will require you to fab stuff. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

number of ways to skin this cat....you alone must decide the level of involvement and the cash outlay you willing to inject into this phase of the brake upgrade.  Number of companies selling bolt on kits for the modern master...quick and esy in and out for the most part but is a bit of out of pocket...number of posts by those compiling their method from a home-grown approach, usually lower costs in material and parts but will take time, skill and fabrication tools (metal cutters, welder and drill press etc.  Only you know if you have the time tools and such to do this task.  The advantage you are looking for is not only operative brake system, but cost effective in replacement parts be it a rebuild kit or rebuilt master should the need arise down the road.  Most of the aftermarket/home-grown give you ease of future maintenance and source of parts that will be cost effective and available OTC for years to come.  Study this bit for you own application. 

[uncleaud]

I've done the research here in the forum. I have no problem and actually enjoy the fabrication part. It seems that the GM dual cylinder is the first choice. The one problem I have, is there a modern cylinder that stays low enough to stay under the floorboard without having to make the big hump in the floor. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

In my opinion the cylinder with integral reservoir was for that reason the why I chose not to go in that direction but strike out and locate a more suitable master for my needs and fabricate the setup I have installed.  I do not nor wish ever to service through the floorboard any master cylinder.  Others may not see this an issue but others may not have the carpet installed as I do and prior to this upgrade and before the carpet even my original master I made remote fill.   Again, this is not that hard of a task retrofitting, but I think by your descriptor of what you do not like, you have greatly narrowed your options.  While the integral master/reservoir can be adapted for remote fill, that often entails yet need for a tad more room between the master and floorboard.  

[Sam Buchanan]

17 minutes ago, uncleaud said:

I've done the research here in the forum. I have no problem and actually enjoy the fabrication part. It seems that the GM dual cylinder is the first choice. The one problem I have, is there a modern cylinder that stays low enough to stay under the floorboard without having to make the big hump in the floor. 

 

Since you stated you've done research on the forum you have probably already seen the Wilwood conversion in my P15. No servicing through the floor and easy access to reservoirs on the firewall. I don't know if your Chrysler master cylinder setup is similar to the Plymouth.

 

 

 

 

[coffeepathsofglory]

3 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

 

Since you stated you've done research on the forum you have probably already seen the Wilwood conversion in my P15. No servicing through the floor and easy access to reservoirs on the firewall. I don't know if your Chrysler master cylinder setup is similar to the Plymouth.

 

 

 

 

 

This is exactly what I'm planning to do with my Scarebird kit. A cheaper dual M/C can fit but you'll need to cut the floor. The extra $100 for the Wilwood unit is worth the price. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

that extra 100.00 would go a long way with buying parts for other systems/needs for the vehicle and while you can order the rebuild kits for these, they are some double the cost and only available from them.  Whereas other brands listed here are OTC assemblies and repair kits and could mean the difference between stranded offsite and laid up a day or say awaiting parts.  This is more important to me, RM&A is everything when building and is always the deciding factor for myself.  If you do not plan to take the car away from home then I can see where parts availability may not be an issue.

[coffeepathsofglory]

1 hour ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

that extra 100.00 would go a long way with buying parts for other systems/needs for the vehicle and while you can order the rebuild kits for these, they are some double the cost and only available from them.  Whereas other brands listed here are OTC assemblies and repair kits and could mean the difference between stranded offsite and laid up a day or say awaiting parts.  This is more important to me, RM&A is everything when building and is always the deciding factor for myself.  If you do not plan to take the car away from home then I can see where parts availability may not be an issue.

 

I hear you, and that's what I was planning to do until I saw how much I'd have to cut out of the floor. My two cents: the build quality on the Wilwood unit is excellent and you can buy rebuild kits for them. I'd put more trust in their product than a reman master m/c from an auto parts store, or a reman stock m/c. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

I totally understand and respect your opinion....but I am still puzzled the why of a floor cut with a master that is not a Wilwood....many donors can be had that are not integral reservoirs.  These are easily adapted and cost effective units and the only difference would in my opinion be the home-grown adapter that would need be fabricated.  So if floor cut is what is putting you off on a possible later model Mopar (other brand) cylinder...that technically should not be an issue/concern.  These later masters come in a variety of bores for to tailor your 'applied' foot pressure.  It is only the concern of having to buy (mail order) from a sole source that puts me off Wilwood and some other folks who do not list source as it is/may be a proprietary item..

[Sniper]

There are remote reservoir kits for off the shelf OEM master cylinders, Corvette ones are easiest to find, but they aren't any cheaper.  No reason you could no drill a hole in the side of the M/C reservoir, screw in a fitting and use a more generic remote reservoir to feed whatever master you want to run.

 

 

[Los_Control]

Just now, coffeepathsofglory said:

My two cents: the build quality on the Wilwood unit is excellent and you can buy rebuild kits for them. I'd put more trust in their product than a reman master m/c from an auto parts store

While I have no experience with Wilwood, I know they have a excellent reputation. So do many other vendors. Like petronix.

If for some reason you have a brake issue on the highway, you pull into Napa & need a part for a Wilwood master cylinder ..... You will get nothing.

 

Same thing with a Scarebird  disk brake conversion, They have a excellent reputation .... you are on the highway & need to replace a rotor or a caliper .... you get no help .... A flatbed ride home & wait for parts to be delivered.

 

IMHO, OEM parts have always been more reliable, the replacements of good quality .....readily available  than a one off custom car supplier.

 

I just prefer to attempt to make life easy & work harder now so it is easier later.

 

I am no more correct here then @coffeepathsofglory is .... just opinions.

 

 

[vintage6t]

12 minutes ago, Sniper said:

There are remote reservoir kits for off the shelf OEM master cylinders, Corvette ones are easiest to find, but they aren't any cheaper.  No reason you could no drill a hole in the side of the M/C reservoir, screw in a fitting and use a more generic remote reservoir to feed whatever master you want to run.

 

 

 

No first hand experience, but I've heard that these type of kits tend to leak around the cover gasket. Probably because the MC's fluid reservoir wasn't designed to be filled to the top as would happen with a remote reservoir plumbed in.

[coffeepathsofglory]

10 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

While I have no experience with Wilwood, I know they have a excellent reputation. So do many other vendors. Like petronix.

If for some reason you have a brake issue on the highway, you pull into Napa & need a part for a Wilwood master cylinder ..... You will get nothing.

 

Same thing with a Scarebird  disk brake conversion, They have a excellent reputation .... you are on the highway & need to replace a rotor or a caliper .... you get no help .... A flatbed ride home & wait for parts to be delivered.

 

IMHO, OEM parts have always been more reliable, the replacements of good quality .....readily available  than a one off custom car supplier.

 

I just prefer to attempt to make life easy & work harder now so it is easier later.

 

I am no more correct here then @coffeepathsofglory is .... just opinions.

 

 

 

Just to clarify, the Scarebird kit uses OEM rotors, calipers, pads, and hoses. You can get all that stuff at NAPA. Not all disc brake kits do, though.

[Los_Control]

Just now, coffeepathsofglory said:

 

Just to clarify, the Scarebird kit uses OEM rotors, calipers, pads, and hoses. You can get all that stuff at NAPA. Not all disc brake kits do, though.

I do appreciate that .... I have a rustyhope kit sitting on the shelf I bought for another project ..... I know exactly what I have with it if I use it. Current project brakes are good.

I have asked about this in the past, you are the first that answered that question about scarebird brake parts replacement.

 

23 hours ago, uncleaud said:

Looking for opinions. I have replaced all of my brake system and now have to decide on replacing the master cylinder with an original or using it as a bracket and going with a new style master cylinder. Either way can work for me, are there any advantages to the new MC other than the dual chamber. Is the old style sufficient and reliable? Thanks

Personally I think a original MC if in good shape and usable will be just fine.

I believe the braking system on your car is a engineered system? Works fine as is.

 

Now if you have original brakes, & modify the master cylinder .... you have to learn a whole new skill just specific to your brake system ..... I mean applying the correct proportioning valve size to work with your existing brakes.  Simply not a one size fits all ... Will take test & tune to make all work correct.

IMHO I would update all the brake system & not just a part of it ????

 

Honestly I'm a big believer in fix what you have, then modify & grow with what you need.

 

 

 

[uncleaud]

3 hours ago, Los_Control said:

I do appreciate that .... I have a rustyhope kit sitting on the shelf I bought for another project ..... I know exactly what I have with it if I use it. Current project brakes are good.

I have asked about this in the past, you are the first that answered that question about scarebird brake parts replacement.

 

Personally I think a original MC if in good shape and usable will be just fine.

I believe the braking system on your car is a engineered system? Works fine as is.

 

Now if you have original brakes, & modify the master cylinder .... you have to learn a whole new skill just specific to your brake system ..... I mean applying the correct proportioning valve size to work with your existing brakes.  Simply not a one size fits all ... Will take test & tune to make all work correct.

IMHO I would update all the brake system & not just a part of it ????

 

Honestly I'm a big believer in fix what you have, then modify & grow with what you need.

 

 

 

That is basically where I am at. I have replaced all brake shoes, wheel cylinders, brake line and hoses. My first plan was to rebuild the stock MC, however as I have honed it out I can still feel some flaws in the bore. Do I want to put a kit in it and hope for the best, (least expense) Buy a new stock MC (easiest but most expensive), New style MC and fabricate brackets (moderate expense but time consuming). Thats where I am at right now. If I can find a low profile over the counter MC or one with remote fill that is probably my direction. So as not to be reinventing the wheel I'm looking for what else has been done. Thanks for the info.

[Eneto-55]

Does anyone have a current price for a bore & sleeve repair of a stock MC?  (for the sake of cost comparison)

[Los_Control]

Just now, Eneto-55 said:

Does anyone have a current price for a bore & sleeve repair of a stock MC?  (for the sake of cost comparison)

That is a excellent suggestion.  I have never had one done I do not know.

I have read in the forums where a few people have had this done. Even on a brand new master cylinder from over sea, leaked from day 1.

A stainless steel sleeve installed & now better then new.

 

A sleeved original MC may last the life of the car or at least as long as we live?

 

I can only guess that it is kinda common to figure $100 a hole to have a engine cylinder sleeved.  ..... With todays inflation, get a price today & will go up tomorrow.

I would imagine a MC would be about the same amount of labor & tooling as a cylinder bore  .... comparable in price. Just need to find a shop set up to do it.

Possible it may be cheaper, I would not expect it to be any more expensive ..... Just a opinion though.

14 hours ago, uncleaud said:

however as I have honed it out I can still feel some flaws in the bore. Do I want to put a kit in it and hope for the best, (least expense) Buy a new stock MC (easiest but most expensive)

When I was a kid I worked as a mechanics helper at a Texaco gas station. I honed a lot of wheel cylinders doing brake jobs .... master cylinder was always left to the mechanic if needed work.

The wheel cylinders depending on how bad they were, clean them up & install new rubber cups.

If pitted, we would hone them out & install 1 size larger rubber cups. That was the limit, 1 size larger.  ..... If they leaked the customer needed a new wheel cylinder ... hey we tried.

 

My master cylinder is 1 1/4" so I would want to go up 1/16" to 1 5/16" ..... You can see in the photo the cup on the far right. Is all I replaced on my MC.

My MC was in good shape, it just needed a good cleaning, & a light hone. I bought a new rubber cup from a local supply store & put it back together & bench bled it.

I have a full kit which cost $33 for a backup if needed.

The main rubber cup is easy to just substitute a larger one. The cylinder the rubber "sweeper" cup is at the rear of the mc & also 1 1/4" ...... not so easy to replace.

If fluid gets too it, & it leaks, you would visually see it leaking out of the rear of the master cylinder.

 

That seal is at the very tail end of the MC, is it pitted & need heavy hone in that area? Will 1 1/4" seal there?

I'm guessing all your wear is before that where the main cup rides .... Hone it good, 1/16" larger cup you are good to go.

Having the MC sleeved would be the ultimate fix.

 

Rule # 1, Don't get dead!

Rule # 2. Play stupid games & win stupid prizes. .... See Rule #1.

Use your gut feeling, look at what you have ... make a decision from that.

[Sniper]

3 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

Does anyone have a current price for a bore & sleeve repair of a stock MC?  (for the sake of cost comparison)

 

Used Duck Duck Go to answer this

 

https://www.applehydraulicsonline.com/collections/sleeving

 

White Post is usually who you will hear mentioned, but they don;t give a price

 

https://whitepost.com/brake-sleeving-rebuilding-services/

[JerseyHarold]

Apple Hydraulics has been around a long time.  I had my Cambridge MC sleeved there in the 1990's.  They were located a few miles from my in-laws on Long Island, so it was a drop-off then pick-up situation.

[Eneto-55]

5 hours ago, Los_Control said:

That is a excellent suggestion.  I have never had one done I do not know.

I have read in the forums where a few people have had this done. Even on a brand new master cylinder from over sea, leaked from day 1.

A stainless steel sleeve installed & now better then new.

 

A sleeved original MC may last the life of the car or at least as long as we live?

 

I can only guess that it is kinda common to figure $100 a hole to have a engine cylinder sleeved.  ..... With todays inflation, get a price today & will go up tomorrow.

I would imagine a MC would be about the same amount of labor & tooling as a cylinder bore  .... comparable in price. Just need to find a shop set up to do it.

Possible it may be cheaper, I would not expect it to be any more expensive ..... Just a opinion though.

When I was a kid I worked as a mechanics helper at a Texaco gas station. I honed a lot of wheel cylinders doing brake jobs .... master cylinder was always left to the mechanic if needed work.

The wheel cylinders depending on how bad they were, clean them up & install new rubber cups.

If pitted, we would hone them out & install 1 size larger rubber cups. That was the limit, 1 size larger.  ..... If they leaked the customer needed a new wheel cylinder ... hey we tried.

 

My master cylinder is 1 1/4" so I would want to go up 1/16" to 1 5/16" ..... You can see in the photo the cup on the far right. Is all I replaced on my MC.

My MC was in good shape, it just needed a good cleaning, & a light hone. I bought a new rubber cup from a local supply store & put it back together & bench bled it.

I have a full kit which cost $33 for a backup if needed.

The main rubber cup is easy to just substitute a larger one. The cylinder the rubber "sweeper" cup is at the rear of the mc & also 1 1/4" ...... not so easy to replace.

If fluid gets too it, & it leaks, you would visually see it leaking out of the rear of the master cylinder.

 

That seal is at the very tail end of the MC, is it pitted & need heavy hone in that area? Will 1 1/4" seal there?

I'm guessing all your wear is before that where the main cup rides .... Hone it good, 1/16" larger cup you are good to go.

Having the MC sleeved would be the ultimate fix.

 

Rule # 1, Don't get dead!

Rule # 2. Play stupid games & win stupid prizes. .... See Rule #1.

Use your gut feeling, look at what you have ... make a decision from that.

I have honed & rebuilt various brake cylinders, both wheel and master.  (The last one I did was for my 72 Dodge Coronet, in December of 83, a month or so before I sold it .(Because my wife had a much newer car, and we were moving to South Dallas for the Spring semester in 84.  We had just married on Dec 3rd, and the master went out on the way home from the air port after our trip.)

 

But back when I was rebuilding the brakes on my 46 (80 or 81) I had considered getting my master cylinder bored and plated back to specs in industrial chrome, in the plating shop where I was working at the time.  (Probably would have done it for free, too.)  But my dad found one still in stock at the Chrysler dealer in Tulsa.  (He was working at an Olds dealership parts department at the time, but still had former co-workers at the Chrysler dealership, where he had worked earlier.)

 

But I didn't know that you could go oversized.  (Or maybe I just forgot that.  Fogotten lots of stuff already.)

Edited October 16, 2022 by Eneto-55

[kencombs]

Quote

 

JMHO, but sleeve install at the listed price is only for restorers.  Drivers can get a brand new dual circuit cylinder for less money.  I think I paid 80 bucks for a new Dodge replacement intended for a 70s pickup.   Of course I'm changing to suspended pedals so that helped with the decision. 

 

I have been driving a long time, long enough to have more than one single master fail when in motion.  I'd really like to avoid that happening again.  If one chooses the same bore size as the original, there should be no need for any changes to the system other than a little plumbing to get the second line installed.

 

Only if changing the brakes at the wheel end might any pressure balance issues arise.