Jump to content

Why would engaging the choke make the engine turn over easier?


OUTFXD

Recommended Posts

Only after long time parking (> 2 weeks), without choke my P23 needs up to 30 seconds before running.

With choke  (it has an on / off switch) it starts within 5 seconds.

I never have to use the choke after shorter breaks.

But I have an additional electric gas pump (parallel to the original one) to prime the carburetor and to liberate the starter motor from

the burden of cranking just to feed gas. And no vapor lock any more!

 

Greetings from Düsseldorf!

go

Edited by Go Fleiter
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, OUTFXD said:

Just an oddity,  I never payed it much thought,  Yesterday my buddy picked up on it and asked me why.

Outfixed. So they question is how long has the car sat since the last time you ran the car. Also was the engine compartment hot. The fuel line runs up from the FP and is close to the manifold. The car has stopped and there is no longer any fuel being pushed through the fuel line to the carb. The heat from the engine not running is now causing the fuel in the line to evaporate so the next time if its been a couple of days there is no fuel inthe line and even maybe not in the bwel of the carb.  So yes you now have to reprime the fuel line and the carb.  So by  pulling the choke will help get the car started.  Some cars have to do this others do not but I feel it is all from the crap gas that we have to use.  Do you have a sisson choke on the car? it also might be out of adjustment or a manual choke? 

 

I have an electric fp to help with this ery same issue. I prime the fuel line and also get some fuel up into the glass bowel in my extra fuel filter just before the carb. But even with this you have to remember that the filter has to fill and then get pushed into the bowel in the carb so that also takes some time to happen.

 

So if the car has been just shut off can you then immediately restart the car without the choke, I assume you can so this happens becsue therer is fuel in the line and also in the carb bowel. 

 

Hope this might explain your issue.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Edit:  I have this confusion on a lot of posts.  Folks will say things like, 'it will crank but not turn over', or similar.  Hard to know what the local language may be for things like that.  Starter runs, engine rotates is the same as 'turn over' to me, but not everybody.  

 

and I read the post to have nothing to do with ease of starting or cranking time, just the ease of cranking and/or cranking speed.

Edited by kencombs
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Car gas sat for about a month.   

 

Car has a Carter B&B 1bbl with manual choke

 

Just put a new manual fuel pump in as the old one was "Leaking down" over night.  and I believe leaking fuel into the oil.

 

to rephrase.  with the choke turned off the starter struggles to turn the engine, With the choke fully engaged the starter will turn at about normal speed.  I am begining to suspect they put high compression pistons in when the engine was rebuilt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting for sure .... buuuuuut, I duno. I would like to see if it could be consistently reproduced over & over.

 

I'm more inclined to think something electrical as a poor ground, or battery is getting weak & not consistently producing same amount of amps.

These things would cause random irregularities in cranking speed.

 

Also if it sat for 2 months, maybe it was just a bit stiff & lazy when you first turned it over, then pulled out the choke and was ready to turn over normal. Had nothing to do with the choke.

Do you have a good ground strap on the engine to cab? .... Is the choke cable acting as a ground and moving it creates a better connection?

 

I just would like to see the results of a daily start up comparison, for a few days .... Can you consistently get the same results?

Opening or closing the choke should not effect the compression or engine rotation in anyway that I know of.

Just my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, clarify the term turn over.   My reference for that phrase is, the starter is able to make the engine make revolutions.  These idioms seem to be regional and dialectic.  I have heard folks say she wont crank which means it won't start.  Others have said it spins but won't run.  I have heard it turns over but won't start.  Spins but won't catch,  cranks but won't pop.

 

So clear the air are you a soda guy, pop guy or soft drink guy.

 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, OUTFXD said:

Car gas sat for about a month.   

 

Car has a Carter B&B 1bbl with manual choke

 

Just put a new manual fuel pump in as the old one was "Leaking down" over night.  and I believe leaking fuel into the oil.

 

to rephrase.  with the choke turned off the starter struggles to turn the engine, With the choke fully engaged the starter will turn at about normal speed.  I am begining to suspect they put high compression pistons in when the engine was rebuilt.

So car sat for a month. Then you put n a new fp in the car. Can we also assume that you are getting gas to the carb? Do you have an extra fuel filter with a glass bowel prior to the carb?  When you first get into the car open the hood check to see if there is any fuel in the fuel filter if you have one prior to the carb. If this is happening then the fuel has evaporated in the fuel filter and also possibly in the carb fuel bowel.

 

Also assume that you have 1/0 gage battery cable installed and good ground connections.

 

So you state that the car struggles to turn over the car. Sounds as if bad connections or starter issue or maybe bad solenoid. Check all of your connects to make sure they are clean and also thiht even the battery connects also at the battery terminals and also clean.

 

Yes by pulling the choke this chokes off the air and provides more atomized fuel to the engine just like in cold weather.

 

How old are the points, condenser, cap and rotor? have you used a  timing light to check the timeing after you get the engine to run and is at an idle speed. Check the point gap maybe the gap is incorrect or the points are pitted, check the contacts on the inside of the cap to see if pitted, check the rotor.  What gap do you have on the plugs? Are the plug black and sooty or clean and gray to whitish looking. Run the car nigh in your garage with the lights from the ceiling turned off. Open the hood check to see if there are any blue lightening stream coming off the sparkplug wires, if yes then replace the wire is leaking.

 

So here are something that you can check and report back to us with your results and then we can try to help you figure out your issue.

 

Rich Hartung

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Getting gas to the carb : yes

See through Fuel Filter Between Fuel pump and carb : yes

1/0 battery cables : yes also extra ground  cables to the starter, Solenoid, and body. also a new battery

I had the original starter professionally rebuilt.  Looked through and additional three times and finally bought a new starter.

Solenoid.  assuming the ones provided by the local Parts Hauses are universal 12v,  Bought a quality Standard co 6v solenoid.  Havent yet installed it.

Car RUNS like a dream.  she is just tough to start the first time.  once she is warm she cranks till the first piston fires, then she is off to the races.

Plugs are light grey and light brown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Outfixed: Thanks for the update: so basically I think it is just that the fuel has evaporated in the fuel filter and the lines from the pump to the carb. This is caused by the heat from the engine and the combination of the ethanol gas. If you can get some real old gas not a blend then try that to see if that solves your problem.

 

so all that you came back with are all good signs so just think the evapoartion of the fuel in the lines.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, OUTFXD said:

Solenoid.  assuming the ones provided by the local Parts Hauses are universal 12v,  Bought a quality Standard co 6v solenoid.  Havent yet installed it.

What you are calling a solenoid is actually a 'Relay' 'Solenoids' are electromagnets. Relays use a solenoid to open or close contacts. Relays are electronic switches. Solenoids are not switches.

It sounds like your 'Relay' is not the right one because you have mentioned it is 'clicking' I would install your new 6vdc relay

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/21/2022 at 11:21 PM, plymouthcranbrook said:

Choke should not completely seal off the carb bore. Need some air to start just a richer mixture. I doubt the choke closed or open will make a difference.

You may be right, but consider the reasons that all instructions for running a compression test include a caution to block the butterflies OPEN.  It needs the airflow to build compression.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, SteveR said:

What you are calling a solenoid is actually a 'Relay' 'Solenoids' are electromagnets. Relays use a solenoid to open or close contacts. Relays are electronic switches. Solenoids are not switches.

You are correct.  However they are referred to as solenoids. Maybe its an American thing. (cant figure out how a starter works without a solenoid)

 

my  Starter is actually engaged by a "Bendix drive"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, kencombs said:

You may be right, but consider the reasons that all instructions for running a compression test include a caution to block the butterflies OPEN.  It needs the airflow to build compression.

I suspect that is to allow the maximum amount of air to flow through the engine rather than any issue with a slight difference of cranking speed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, OUTFXD said:

You are correct.  However they are referred to as solenoids. Maybe its an American thing. (cant figure out how a starter works without a solenoid)

 

my  Starter is actually engaged by a "Bendix drive"

I think it is more of a regional thing. I am an American born and bred in Minnesota. I moved to England in 97 with my English wife. Some modern starters used a solenoid to fire the pinion gear into the flywheel. There was a switch at the end that closed the contacts to turn the starter motor. So when you talked about the solenoid and not knowing what type of starter was used in your car I assumed you had a solenoid on the starter. Thanks for the clarification. My mind is resting at ease now. Have you changed the solenoid/relay yet and if so what was the outcome?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

two reasons.     rich gasoline mixture thins the oil adhering to the cylinder walls

 

                           full choke reduces the effective compression ratio by limiting what is there to be compressed.

 

Both these factors reduce the load on the starter.    Propane fired engines do not get the oil on the walls diluted and can be hard to start

in cold conditions unless a multi grade oil is used.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, SteveR said:

Have you changed the solenoid/relay yet and if so what was the outcome?

Havent got around to installing it yet.  Been busy helping my friend terrace some hilly property.

 

It is literally sitting on the fender waiting for me to get around to it.

 

I'll be sure to keep you up to date.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.

Terms of Use