Need Help!!!!!. 41’ Dodge

[shane_thompson]

Cannot get truck to run after trying everything. Crank but no start. Either sludge is holding the engine back, it’s something very simple, or it’s completely broken. 
 

One thing I ask: how long can a 6V battery last? After 1 crank the truck will partially seize or crank slow/normal. 
 

Here’s a list of the updated advice for fixes:

1. Timing is set and has been correct

2. Brand new battery installed

3. Accelerator pump works

4. Fuel sits in carb bowl and flows

5. Spark plugs blue spark outside engine; gapped .025

6. Distributor as normal

6. Manifold turns fuel into vapor

7. Open choke, closed throttle, closed choke and throttle, closed choke open throttle; nothing. 
8. Starter fluid? Nothing. 
9. No flooding
 

No backfire, no start, no explosion, no fire. Just cranking for eternity.

[Doug&Deb]

Make sure distributor isn’t 180 degrees out. Trust me I’ve done this more than once. At tdc on number one the rotor should point to approximately 7 o’clock.

[Merle Coggins]

Regarding your comment about partially seizing, or cranking slow. This makes me think that either the timing is too far advanced, your battery cables are too small or badly corroded, or your starter has an issue.

 

*Too much advance will try to fire before the piston gets to the top, trying to push the piston back down while the starter motor is trying to push it up.

 

*Too small, or corroded, battery cables cause a serious voltage drop at the starter and beyond. This not only slows own the cranking but also reduces the voltage available to the ignition system reducing the spark quality.

 

*If the starter is dragging, or has other issues, it will also cause a serious voltage drop (see above) 

[ratbailey]

Make sure you haven't run your battery down below 7-7.5 volts. My heap now starts after 2-3 cranks on a fully charged battery, but won't start if the battery dips down below 7 volts. Go easy on the starter, don't burn it out. If it doesn't kick after 10 seconds, it's probably not going to.

What condition is the wiring in? All the stuff Merle Coggins says, plus any shorts anywhere in the circuit due to crusty wiring, bad grounds, etc. will cut down on the juice getting to where it needs to go. Dirt and corrosion are effective resistors. 

[shane_thompson]

39 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said:

Regarding your comment about partially seizing, or cranking slow. This makes me think that either the timing is too far advanced, your battery cables are too small or badly corroded, or your starter has an issue.

 

*Too much advance will try to fire before the piston gets to the top, trying to push the piston back down while the starter motor is trying to push it up.

 

*Too small, or corroded, battery cables cause a serious voltage drop at the starter and beyond. This not only slows own the cranking but also reduces the voltage available to the ignition system reducing the spark quality.

 

*If the starter is dragging, or has other issues, it will also cause a serious voltage drop (see above) 

I’ve ruled out the starter having issues as we tested it in the beginning. 

*Corroded batt cables? Could be corroded on the inside, wouldn't hurt to buy brand new ones. 
 

*Distributor advance timing; this is where you rotate the cap down and up right? Not pulling it out of the engine correct? Right now it was almost full forward. 
 

I’m gonna check cylinder compression readings to the exact force reading tomorrow. (Has compression, not sure the quality). 
 

let me send my distributor as reference for guidance:(Pic is sideways)

[shane_thompson]

17 minutes ago, ratbailey said:

Make sure you haven't run your battery down below 7-7.5 volts. My heap now starts after 2-3 cranks on a fully charged battery, but won't start if the battery dips down below 7 volts. Go easy on the starter, don't burn it out. If it doesn't kick after 10 seconds, it's probably not going to.

What condition is the wiring in? All the stuff Merle Coggins says, plus any shorts anywhere in the circuit due to crusty wiring, bad grounds, etc. will cut down on the juice getting to where it needs to go. Dirt and corrosion are effective resistors. 

How do I check the voltage? The ammeter is the only electrical gauge and it just represents the generator’s status. 
 

For wiring, it’s decent. Not new but not original. As old as a car with 40k miles. I extensively inspected the wiring issue and only noticed a mistake in two wires being on the wrong post.

I want to note: the diff fluid and axles are oozing in sludge. Maybe same for the engine? Might be worth taking her apart to clean her up to use detergent oil anyways.
 

For some historical context: It was first used at Estrella Army Airfield/Nat guard base in Paso Robles, CA. After, it became someone’s farm truck. The block says 1948 and the truck is from 1941. Then, it was donated to the flying museum at Estrella when the base was decommissioned. Last, the owners closed the museum down for another organization and we took it to Camarillo Airport, CA, decades ago where it now resides. A lot of mystery in condition.

[Sam Buchanan]

You need three things to make this truck run.

 

Compression

 

Spark occurring at the right time

 

Fuel through the carb

 

You can scatter-shot your troubleshooting if you wish but the most productive route will be to take each of the above three and verify their quality. Easiest thing to check is compression--if decent then move on. If not, internal engine work is needed.

 

I would then move to ignition. This involves voltage to the coil and distributor, points in good condition, gap and timing properly set, and healthy plugs.

 

Then see if fuel is getting to the carb.....it probably isn't due to a clogged system.....repair as necessary. May involve a new fuel pump and/or carb overhaul....or maybe attention to the fuel tank and lines. But you can bypass these just to get it running.

 

When you have compression, properly timed spark and fuel.......the truck will run.

 

Oh....one more thing you must have.....a service manual. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Sam Buchanan

[Sniper]

20 minutes ago, shane_thompson said:

How do I check the voltage?

 

With a meter, part and parcel of working on old vehicles

 

21 minutes ago, shane_thompson said:

The ammeter is the only electrical gauge and it just represents the generator’s status. 

 

That is not the entirety of what it does.  It monitors the entire charging system including the battery.  If it's reading negative, with the engine running, it means the vehicle is drawing power from the battery.  At idle with the headlights on that might be normal, at speed it's not.  If it's reading positive it means the generator is charging the battery, it should taper off to zero as the battery charges, if it doesn't you have an issue.

 

Before you tart replacing parts, do some tests.  A voltage drop test on the battery cables will tell you if they are up to snuff, you need to start with a fully charged battery.  I've link a video I made on how I tested mine.

 

https://youtu.be/cRz1IqJLXqU

 

[shane_thompson]

20 minutes ago, Sam Buchanan said:

You need three things to make this truck run.

 

Compression

 

Spark occurring at the right time

 

Fuel through the carb

 

You can scatter-shot your troubleshooting if you wish but the most productive route will be to take each of the above three and verify their quality. Easiest thing to check is compression--if decent then move on. If not, internal engine work is needed.

 

I would then move to ignition. This involves voltage to the coil and distributor, points in good condition, gap and timing properly set, and healthy plugs.

 

Then see if fuel is getting to the carb.....it probably isn't due to a clogged system.....repair as necessary. May involve a new fuel pump and/or carb overhaul....or maybe attention to the fuel tank and lines. But you can bypass these just to get it running.

 

When you have compression, properly timed spark and fuel.......the truck will run.

 

Oh....one more thing you must have.....a service manual. 

i made a list at the top of everything that has been checked for the truck thus for. That needs to be read first. 
 

Here’s a list of updated work regardless:

 

Compression - checking exact readings tomorrow

 
Spark Timing - has been correctly timed and inspected

 

Fuel - turns into a fine mist

 

And i already have a service manual from 41’ I have been using. It misses out on a fee things so it isn’t perfect.

[DonaldSmith]

180 degrees off?  Been there, done that.

Now, a trick to know that the distributor is not 180 degrees off, is to have the No. 1 plug out and your thumb on the hole while you crank the engine up to Top Dead Center.   You will feel the compression.  (Do this with the coil disconnected, so you don't get a surprise from the loose plug wire.   Do this with all the plugs out, so it cranks more easily.)

This is easier than removing a valve cover to check that both the valves at No. 1 are closed.  

[desoto1939]

check the inside the distributor I can only see one small wire running from the condenser I think the dizzy is not setup correctly do you have a used breaker plate assembly what is the specific dizzy number IGT-xxxx etc.

 

Check the dizzy again for correct wire hookups.

 

Rich Hartung

[Bryan G]

Buy a multimeter; it doesn't have to be a great one (but not one of those little $10 jobs.) You'll find it very useful for checking voltages but also as a continuity tester and checking voltage drop.

 

If this sat for a very long time, I'm thinking stuck valves.

[keithb7]

I have started engines by pouring a raw small amount of fuel down a dried up crusty, leaking old useless carb.

Then you know 100% you are getting fuel. This will eliminate the fuel tank, lines, pump, filter, carb. Take it all right out of the equation.

 

I'll think you'll get your answer once you take a dry, then wet compression test.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by keithb7

[shane_thompson]

59 minutes ago, keithb7 said:

I have started engines by pouring a raw small amount of fuel down a dried up crusty, leaking old useless carb.

Then you know 100% you are getting fuel. This will eliminate the fuel tank, lines, pump, filter, carb. Take it all right out of the equation.

 

I'll think you'll get your answer once you take a dry, then wet compression test.

 

Wanna know the ironic thing? Your videos are what’s getting me through this relatively smoothly. Lol

But anyways, compression test tomorrow, fingers crossed. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by shane_thompson

[Merle Coggins]

12 hours ago, shane_thompson said:

 

*Distributor advance timing; this is where you rotate the cap down and up right? Not pulling it out of the engine correct? Right now it was almost full forward. 
 

 

This comment makes me question your timing again. Have you done any static timing? Do you have a timing light? 

Static timing can be done simply with a volt meter or test light. Crank the engine by hand to get the #1 cylinder at Top Dead Center (TDC) on the compression stroke. Removing the spark plugs makes it easier. Also, you can put a finger over the plug hole to detect when it is making compression to verify which stroke you are on. Once you have the engine at #1 TDCC connect a test light to the terminal on the side of the distributor. Loosen the distributor hold down clamp and rotate the distributor to fully retarded (counter clockwise I believe) Then rotate the other direction until your test light lights up, or your volt meter shows voltage. This is the position where the points open and the coil would send spark to the plugs. Tighten things down and try starting again.

If you have a timing light you can also check the timing while cranking to be sure you are still around TDC. Eventually you’ll want to adjust it a few degrees advanced, but this should get it to start.

Another thing to check regarding the condition of your distributor. If you remove the cap you should be able to twist the rotor one direction against a spring, and if you let go it should return to where it was. If there is no spring resistance, and you can rotate it back and forth easily, this indicates that the advance springs are bad and the timing will advance quickly as soon as it starts rotating. This will make setting your timing very difficult.  

[shane_thompson]

4 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

 

This comment makes me question your timing again. Have you done any static timing? Do you have a timing light? 

Static timing can be done simply with a volt meter or test light. Crank the engine by hand to get the #1 cylinder at Top Dead Center (TDC) on the compression stroke. Removing the spark plugs makes it easier. Also, you can put a finger over the plug hole to detect when it is making compression to verify which stroke you are on. Once you have the engine at #1 TDCC connect a test light to the terminal on the side of the distributor. Loosen the distributor hold down clamp and rotate the distributor to fully retarded (counter clockwise I believe) Then rotate the other direction until your test light lights up, or your volt meter shows voltage. This is the position where the points open and the coil would send spark to the plugs. Tighten things down and try starting again.

If you have a timing light you can also check the timing while cranking to be sure you are still around TDC. Eventually you’ll want to adjust it a few degrees advanced, but this should get it to start.

Another thing to check regarding the condition of your distributor. If you remove the cap you should be able to twist the rotor one direction against a spring, and if you let go it should return to where it was. If there is no spring resistance, and you can rotate it back and forth easily, this indicates that the advance springs are bad and the timing will advance quickly as soon as it starts rotating. This will make setting your timing very difficult.  

I will try this but as I test this sucker, I pull the spark plugs out and notice they all smell off. Possibly a fuel burn smell. All bark no bite maybe? Which could indicate a timing problem.

 

Anyways the distributor manipulation is the hardest for me, so I’ll get to work on that after this compression test today, and reply the numbers to keith

[James_Douglas]

Either I cannot see it in the photo or it is not there...no vacuum advance?

 

1941 Dodge TRUCK WC shows a Autolite IGS-4111-1 distributor with a VC-1039A vacuum advance module.

 

James

Edited March 22, 2022 by James_Douglas

[shane_thompson]

51 minutes ago, James_Douglas said:

Either I cannot see it in the photo or it is not there...no vacuum advance?

 

1941 Dodge TRUCK WC shows a Autolite IGS-4111-1 distributor with a VC-1039A vacuum advance module.

 

James

[FarmerJon]

Sorry if you have already said, but when is the last time you know that it ran? Did someone else do work to it, only to have it never run again? 

 

How old is the fuel you are using?

 

While you have the spark plugs out for the compression test I would verify that #1 cylinder has the rotor pointing at the terminal of the distributor when it is at TDC and that said terminal has the wire going to #1. From there I would verify the order of the other plug wires. Some resources show our distributor turning Counter Clockwise. This is wrong, and will cause a condition like you have now. 

To be clear, our distributors turn Clockwise.

 

Good luck

 

[shane_thompson]

UPDATE:

 

looks like stuck valves gentlemen. Did wet and dry tests for all cylinders. Looks like the head is coming off now to re-seat. Breaker-bar time. Coolant has to come out too. 

[Sniper]

I have had my best success with using a precision oiler and brake fluid to loosen up stuck valves.  Here's the thread I wrote when I needed to free up my stuck valves.

 

 

[OUTFXD]

The Wholly Trinity.  Fire, Fuel, Air.   You said it was sparking and the timing was set so Fire is out.  I assume you checked the  Air filter/Tried to start it with the air cleaner off checking the AIR box.  Are we sure it is getting fuel?  Check for blockages at Pump, Filter, and carb.

[Booger]

dont overlook most simpliest of things. Condensors have bit me in the ass before

Edited March 23, 2022 by Booger
spel

[shane_thompson]

55 minutes ago, OUTFXD said:

The Wholly Trinity.  Fire, Fuel, Air.   You said it was sparking and the timing was set so Fire is out.  I assume you checked the  Air filter/Tried to start it with the air cleaner off checking the AIR box.  Are we sure it is getting fuel?  Check for blockages at Pump, Filter, and carb.

It’s the valves and (maybe) cylinders. Especially #4 bore. Here are the numbers with a compression test in PSI:

 

 

Dry Test (psi)

 

Cyl. 1: 60

 

Cyl. 2: 62

 

Cyl. 3: 62

 

Cyl. 4: 59

 

Cyl. 5: 90 and 90 

 

Cyl. 6: 90

 

 

 

Wet Test

 

Cyl. 1: 58

 

Cyl. 2: 50

 

Cyl. 3: 60

 

Cyl. 4:  35

 

Cyl. 5: 60

 

Cyl. 6: 70–60

 

 

 

 

 

[Merle Coggins]

If you had valves sticking open you’d have numbers much lower than that. They’d be closer to 0 on the cylinders with valves hanging open. That should be enough compression to get it started. It may just be stuck rings and a good heat cycle may help loosen things up.