Rusty Wheel Cylinder

[squirebill]

So I was having a situation with my brakes on my B1B where I felt I had to stand on the pedal to stop and hold, especially on an incline. I thought that maybe I had seized wheel cylinder/s as was previously reported on this forum.   My plan was to pull a drum and verify the wheel cylinders were actuating when the brake pedal was pressed. First I measured and recorded the distance from the end of the cylinder pin to the back of the wheel cylinder for the upper and lower cylinders.  Then using three 12 inch diameter worm gear hose clamps (as used for flexible A/C ducts) I tightened them around the two brake shoes.  I then loosened them 10 turns of the screw and applied the brake pedal holding it down with a stick wedged between the pedal and the seat floor pan.  Measured the wheel cylinder extension.  The lower cylinder extended 0.57 inch.  The upper cylinder extended 0.15 inch.  Pulled the upper cylinder and sure enough the piston was seized with rust.  With careful cleaning using brake fluid and a ScothBrite pad was able to free the piston.  Now the piston freely moves in the bore due to the spring pressure within the cylinder. This was the left rear wheel.  Will do the others as weather permits.  Note that these were new cylinders installed summer of 2020.  Based on the condition of the rest of the brake components I'm convinced this rust was present when the cylinder was purchased.   Let the buyer beware.  Check all you can before install. 

[Veemoney]

I pull new brake components apart, give them a check and coat the parts with a brake grease ( Sil-Glyde) before reassembling. I like to confirm the seals and bores look good and it is a quick easy check to do. The grease is sticky and I believe it helps  protect from the early start of rust in the bores.

[knuckleharley]

One solution that may seem to be a little bit pricey at first is to buy rebuilt wheel cylinders from White Post Restorations in Virginia,or to have yours sent there to be rebuilt. They bore them out,and then line them with stainless steel inserts.

 

Not neccessary in a car that is driven often,but might be worth doing if your car sometimes stays parked for months at a time in a part of the country where it is humid.

 

I have never used or even seen the White Post wheel cylinders myself,but they have been doing this for years,so I assume their product is a good one.

[harmony]

3 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

One solution that may seem to be a little bit pricey at first is to buy rebuilt wheel cylinders from White Post Restorations in Virginia,or to have yours sent there to be rebuilt. They bore them out,and then line them with stainless steel inserts.

 

Not neccessary in a car that is driven often,but might be worth doing if your car sometimes stays parked for months at a time in a part of the country where it is humid.

 

I have never used or even seen the White Post wheel cylinders myself,but they have been doing this for years,so I assume their product is a good one.

I went to their website but I didn't see any pricing.  Do you know what they would charge per wheel cylinder? 

[desoto1939]

The price all depend on each cylinder. If you have step wheel cylinders ones that have two different size bores then they are more expensice that a single size bore.  Also when I was at Carlise last spring I notices that at the White Post site their literature stated that they do not guanatee brakes that will be filled with slicone brake fluid.  There was no one to ask why but make sure you contact them prior to having them reline your wheel cylinders.

 

Rich Hartung

[knuckleharley]

5 hours ago, harmony said:

I went to their website but I didn't see any pricing.  Do you know what they would charge per wheel cylinder? 

No,but you can send them an email and ask. They have been doing this for years,so chances are they even have an exchange program for the more common ones.

[Cannuck]

I have dot 5 silicone brake fluid in my car and have a frozen wheel cylinder . Should I pump it all out ,how would I do that ?

[Cannuck]

I tapped the frozen piston back and found no rust . How would I test this cylinder maybe with compressed air or hook it back to the brake line ? There is nothing to clean that I can see a little bit of dirty looking brake fluid once whipped cylinder walls are shiny

[Los_Control]

I will just toss out a few ideas ... Dot 5 brake fluid was never around on these old cars and made to work with newer products.

 

I would only assume the Dot5 is not compatible with your rubber cups and made them swell so much they will not move, or I doubt it caused corrosion on your pistons to stop them from moving..

 

So just pretending I am on a game show, I say brake fluid for 5 points Alex!

Simply expanded the rubber cups you have and they no longer can slide in the wheel cylinders or master cylinder .... Hope I am wrong.

[DJ194950]

From what I have read for years-

 

Changing from or to Dot 5 requires all cylinders And lines cleaned out with alcohol or brake  clean type solvents to remove 100% of the old fluid.

 

Dot 5 is totally incompatible with any any of the other dot spec. type fluids and turns to a jelly substance that does not work well in brake systems.

 

As for dot 5 swelling rubber parts- it does not, period. But does no harm to paints. Otherwise not usually a great choice.

 

Most all dot spec fluids absorb moisture that is in most all brake system and needs to exchanged after some period of time.

 

Problem exclusive to dot 5 is is it does not absorb moisture but it still gets in the system from the air and stays free in the system. Rust is the result in  both types of fluid but I assume? more so in systems with dot 5 fluid . Also fluid boiling point is lower as compared to newer type of Dot fluids.

 

Both types require total fluid exchange at some interval.

 

Again I'd assume-More so with dot 5.

 

DJ

Edited March 20, 2022 by DJ194950

[Cannuck]

Thank you . Now I clean out the master cylinder suck out all that is there them start pumping dot three through the bleeders ? How do I know when the system is flushed . For instance put a couple of litres through ,or is it more complicated ?  What is this brake clean solution ?

[harmony]

3 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

The price all depend on each cylinder. If you have step wheel cylinders ones that have two different size bores then they are more expensice that a single size bore.  Also when I was at Carlise last spring I notices that at the White Post site their literature stated that they do not guanatee brakes that will be filled with slicone brake fluid.  There was no one to ask why but make sure you contact them prior to having them reline your wheel cylinders.

 

Rich Hartung

Mine are working fine now.  I was just curious about the process and what they might charge.

[desoto1939]

1 hour ago, DJ194950 said:

From what I have read for years-

 

Changing from or to Dot 5 requires all cylinders And lines cleaned out with alcohol or brake  clean type solvents to remove 100% of the old fluid.

 

Dot 5 is totally incompatible with any any of the other dot spec. type fluids and turns to a jelly substance that does not work well in brake systems.

 

As for dot 5 swelling rubber parts- it does not, period. But does no harm to paints. Otherwise not usually a great choice.

 

Most all dot spec fluids absorb moisture that is in most all brake system and needs to exchanged after some period of time.

 

Problem exclusive to dot 5 is is it does not absorb moisture but it still gets in the system from the air and stays free in the system. Rust is the result in  both types of fluid but I assume? more so in systems with dot 5 fluid . Also fluid boiling point is lower as compared to newer type of Dot fluids.

 

Both types require total fluid exchange at some interval.

 

Again I'd assume-More so with dot 5.

 

DJ

I have been using DOT 5 fluid in my brake system for 35 year of ownership of my 1939 Desoto.  Yes you need to flush the entire brake system with denatured alcohol and replace the rubber components.  The nice part is that the DOT 5 does not absorb water to rust out the lines and brake components.  As with any brak system yes you will need to bleed the system every several year to insure good clean brake fluid.  Part of my winter process is to every couple of weeks just sit inthe car and depress the brake pedal to move brake fluid this keeps the pistons and seals lubricated in each wheel cylinder and the master cylinder.  You need to be proactive with these old cars becasue they sit more often then are run on the road.

 

Spring maintenance isa must prior to taking the car out for a major run.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Cannuck]

First I must apologize for hijacking this topic .

Thanks Rick it has been a few years that i have dot 5 in my system. I don't recall the process I used but I probably didn't get it all out  and I certainly did't flush with this alcohol brake line cleaner .

I do want to do it right so I go to my NAPA dealer and get this alcohol and pore it in the empty master cylinder and go through the bleeding the brakes .

How does one know when to switch back to DOT 5 or Dot 3 and then how to know when all the alcohol is removed ?

[desoto1939]

48 minutes ago, Cannuck said:

First I must apologize for hijacking this topic .

Thanks Rick it has been a few years that i have dot 5 in my system. I don't recall the process I used but I probably didn't get it all out  and I certainly did't flush with this alcohol brake line cleaner .

I do want to do it right so I go to my NAPA dealer and get this alcohol and pore it in the empty master cylinder and go through the bleeding the brakes .

How does one know when to switch back to DOT 5 or Dot 3 and then how to know when all the alcohol is removed ?

Cannuck: so you already have dot 5 in the system. So when you flush the system with denatured alcohol you will need a catch jar at each wheel cylinder. You flush the lines just like you are bleeding each wheel cylinder.  The brake fluid will seperate.  It might take a couple of gallons to flush the system.  You will notice that the gar willbe clear of any brake fluid. Cleanout the cyclinders, new brake hoses, cups and outer cups. rebuild the Master cylinder also front hoses and fron wheel cylinders then start the bleeding process from the right rear then left rear right front then left front.

 

Rich

[dpollo]

    Raybestos  WC10580 10581 10582 10583 are the front cylinder numbers for 46 to 56    10588 the rears   ( not absolutely sure that is the right number as I sit here)  BH 10595 front hoses  all available  ( on order) at any good auto supply.    I have been rebuilding wheel and master cylinders for 60 years but for a customer or a novice, go for new.      the above  cylinders were about $50 each.    

[Cannuck]

Thanks to everyone'

[squirebill]

Finally got to the  front wheel cylinders on the B1B.  They are stepped bores,  1 1/4" facing forward and 1 3/8 facing rear.  The left front was seized with rust in the bore but only on the outside of the pistons.  Was able to push the pistons in using a C-clamp and remove the rust from the bore then disassemble the the wheel cylinders.  Odd thing with the left front, when I disassembled it it had two 1 3/8 cups in it.  Anybody know why this may have been done?  Maybe the inner cup was leaking during a manufacturing pressure test and they just pulled the cap and piston and stuffed another cup in.  Who knows. 

 

Veemoney, I am interested in your assembly technique with the Sil-glyde.  Do you coat all parts, (bores, cups and pistons) with the lube?  Please advise.

 

Concerning DOT 5 brake fluid.  In a long gone work career, I was assigned to do a study to substitute DOT 5 fluid for MIL-H- 5606 fluid we were using in a machine we manufactured for the US Air Force and others around the world.  At that time no us auto manufacturers were using it.  If I remember correctly Harley Davidson was  using it on there bikes for the front wheel brake.   The main bug-a-boo for us was it did not absorb water but our hydraulic system reservoir was open to the atmosphere and would absorb water from they air.  We were concerned the water ingested would accumulate in various places in the hydraulic system, Bottom of the reservoir, pump, valves, etc., freeze and either crack components or prevent fluid flow.  We stayed with MIL-H-5606. 

[Veemoney]

5 hours ago, squirebill said:

Veemoney, I am interested in your assembly technique with the Sil-glyde.  Do you coat all parts, (bores, cups and pistons) with the lube?  Please advise.

When I disassemble a new master or wheel cylinder I wipe down all components, inspect them and coat the bores, seals and pistons with the Sil-Glyde before assembling each assembly. The intent is that the silicone grease be a barrier between the parts and the oil/water from direct contact and forming rust. Metal is porous so even small amounts of the silicone grease filling those pores should in theory slow the process of rust starting there. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ratbailey]

On 3/20/2022 at 7:32 PM, harmony said:

Mine are working fine now.  I was just curious about the process and what they might charge.

I called them a few days ago for my '48 DeSoto. $85 per cylinder was the quote. It seems they're only relining using brass rather than stainless now.

Edited April 8, 2022 by ratbailey

[knuckleharley]

On 3/20/2022 at 11:33 AM, harmony said:

I went to their website but I didn't see any pricing.  Do you know what they would charge per wheel cylinder? 

I have chemo brain,so if I ever knew,I forgot.

 

I do know they have a web page that allows you to email them questions,so why not go there and ask them? After all,it costs nothing to  ask.

[Bryan]

4 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

I have chemo brain,so if I ever knew,I forgot.

 

I do know they have a web page that allows you to email them questions,so why not go there and ask them? After all,it costs nothing to  ask.

But glad to see you back.  ? Hope all is going as well as it can.

[knuckleharley]

On 4/20/2022 at 5:46 AM, Bryan said:

But glad to see you back.  ? Hope all is going as well as it can.

Well,I am still trying to recover my short-term memory,and not having much luck.

 

On a positive side,after being diagnosed as being terminal after maxing out on chemo and the other drug that I can't remember,the doc asked me if I wanted to try an experimental drug that hadn't been approved by the FDA yet,but was so promising the FDA was allowing it to be sold as long as it wasn't advertised as a "cure" for cancer. You take two pills,twice a day. The only downside was the doc told me some people got so violently sick from it,they told her they would rather die from cancer than take it anymore,and asked me if I want to try it anyhow.

 

I said "Sure. What do I have to lose? If it makes me that sick,I'll just quit taking it."

 

Here is where the chemo brain really worked for me. By the time it came in the mail,I had forgotten what it was for and that it might make me sick,so it didn't. In fact,I actually started feeling noticeably better within a week or so. I just ignored and enjoyed it without even thinking about the new meds.

 

Took it for a couple of weeks before taking another PET Scan,and when I went to see the doc for a checkup,she didn't believe what she was seeing because it showed me to be cancer-free. So she sent me back for another PET Scan the next week,and that one came back cancer-free,also. I am now taking PET Scans once every 3 months instead of once a month,and every one has came back negative for cancer.

 

The bad news is a bottle of 120 of these pills cost $13,400 at either Wal-Mart or Food Lion's Pharmacy,and another thousand bucks everywhere else.

 

The good news is IF you are a veteran you can get it for free from the VA. I suspect,but don't know for sure,that if you go to a big cancer clinic like the one I went to,you can get the first bottle for free anyhow because the pill company needs people with cancer to test it so they can show the results to the FDA and then sell it as a cancer cure.

 

If you have good health insurance,they might or might not pay for it. They might refuse using the excuse it isn't approved yet and is still experimental.

 

If all else fails,I THINK you MIGHT be able to buy it at retail price if you can come up with the money without a prescription because it is being sold as a generic drug.

 

And let's face it,if you are dying from lymphoma and can MAYBE cure it with one or two bottles,chances are you will figure out a way to come up with the money.

 

I hope you and your loved ones never need this info,but PLEASE share it with anyone you know that does. AFAIK,which isn't very far,it is for Lymphoma, but I have a hard time believing it won't at least help with some other forms of cancer.

 

BTW,for all I know,it might even quit working. The docs never declare anyone to be cancer-free until they have been without cancer for 5 straight years. Since I am 75 now,it seems unlikely I won't die of something else before the 5 years are up,but I am going to do the best I can.

 

BTW,the manufacturer is a company named  Brukinsa and the medicine is named Zanubrutinib and comes in capsules,

 

Arthur

 

[oldodge41]

Knuckle Harley that is great news! For you and everyone who suffers from Cancer. I love your attitude.  Best of luck in bearing the five year odds.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I agree, good attitude....I am not so sure I could be this positive.  You could be the very guy when I say this little quip of mine, What do you want folks to say about you 100 years from now......dang, he sure looks good for his age...!