harmony Posted February 25, 2022 Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 I removed the clock today to see why it wasn't working. After many hours of meticulously removing each gear one at a time I think I've found the issue. Problem is I don't know how to fix it or why it's the way it is. It's the centre gear assembly. It has a bunch of stuff attached to it. doing different jobs. The small gear and the centre shaft isn't spinning freely. That centre shaft is the same one that the hands slide over. I clamped on a pair of hemostats to the shaft and after a bit of effort I got the rest of the assembly to rotate "tightly" It should spin freely. The purpose of the small gear is to set the time manually ( red arrow) Since it is tight, the clock just keeps blowing fuses. The reason I know all this is because I have another clock I got out of my parts car. It too wasn't working but it was only a broken wire on one end of the coil and after a dab of solder it works fine. Not only that but it keeps accurate time over 24 hours with out have to adjust it. Anyways so with both clocks right in front of me. When I grab the time adjuster on the face of the clock and turn it, I can see 3 gears turning, the last gear is the one the arrow points at. The rest of that centre assembly stays still as the gear and shaft rotate. On the clock that blows fuses I can't ever turn the knob. I've tried deep creep and it sort of loosened it up a bit. I put it back together and it was still too tight, the time adjuster still wouldn't rotate. I'm definitely not going to take apart the one that works to see if there are any clues or differences once I had the gear cluster out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcDeSoto Posted February 25, 2022 Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 You have more guts than I do. They say Henry Ford started out that way by taking a watch apart to find out what made it tick, and then putting it back together again. Sounds like it's time to hand the clock over to a clock doc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hiebert Posted February 25, 2022 Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 Probably dirt, dust, congealed oil, or even run/left dry for too long. The tolerances are so tight in clock mechanisms that the smallest amount of foreign material will bind it up. When I'm feeling masochistic, I restore cuckoo clocks for kicks. I'm not a horologist by any stretch, sometimes I can't figure out a problem, but "dirty" is the first thing to check in clocks, just like "ground" is first thing to check in auto electrics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted February 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Dan Hiebert said: Probably dirt, dust, congealed oil, or even run/left dry for too long. The tolerances are so tight in clock mechanisms that the smallest amount of foreign material will bind it up. When I'm feeling masochistic, I restore cuckoo clocks for kicks. I'm not a horologist by any stretch, sometimes I can't figure out a problem, but "dirty" is the first thing to check in clocks, just like "ground" is first thing to check in auto electrics. Yes, I know enough ( not much) about clocks to not to over lubricate them. That makes them a magnet for dust, which is their enemy. I've learned through you tube to just oil the ends of each gear where they ride in the end plate. Using clock oil if you can find it, or neatsfoot oil. I cheat a bit and use sewing machine oil. The trick is to dab a sewing needle in the oil. Let it hang until any excess oil drips off and you have one tiny drop on the end of the needle then gently touch the end of the gear, if you can get at it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted February 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 7 hours ago, MarcDeSoto said: You have more guts than I do. They say Henry Ford started out that way by taking a watch apart to find out what made it tick, and then putting it back together again. Sounds like it's time to hand the clock over to a clock doc. There is a guy in Ontario across the country that is pretty good at vintage auto clock repairs. Fortunately it's just a spare, But I like the challenge of repairing it. However about 10 hours has gone by since I took it apart. The test will be if I can remember what goes where. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Skinner Posted February 25, 2022 Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) With my cuckoo clock and Chrysler clock, I just PB Blaster them when they act up and prestodigitorium (Merlin the magician) they work like new again. Marinate the guts with PB Blaster - it smells for a bit, then let drip dry. Then they work again. I know it is the simpletins way out but it works. Also do the same with an old Elgin Watch. Never had trouble with Dust just cover them back up and let em run. Tom Edited February 25, 2022 by Tom Skinner add Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted February 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 11 minutes ago, Tom Skinner said: With my cuckoo clock and Chrysler clock, I just PB Blaster them when they act up and prestodigitorium (Merlin the magician) they work like new again. Marinate the guts with PB Blaster - it smells for a bit, then let drip dry. Then they work again. I know it is the simpletins way out but it works. Also do the same with an old Elgin Watch. Never had trouble with Dust just cover them back up and let em run. Tom I tried PB Blaster after the deep creep as well as compressed air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted February 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 The opposite end looks like there is a rubber bushing in the recess. Perhaps a plastic material. But there doesn't seem to be a way to get it out. The ring gear on the end seems to have a bit of spring to it, but only marginally. So I think there is something going on inside the centre brass section. Like I said I'm not curious ( brave) enough to pull apart the working clock to the point where I have this cluster in my hand. I'm curious if the shaft and the small brass gear would simply pull right out. If not, what's holding it in there, and in this particular cluster, what's keeping it from spinning freely?? I may try filling the recessed end with a few drops of carb cleaner, or maybe liquid wrench, carefully not to get any on any other part of it and see if it comes out the other end of the shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted February 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, harmony said: The opposite end looks like there is a rubber bushing in the recess. Perhaps a plastic material. But there doesn't seem to be a way to get it out. The ring gear on the end seems to have a bit of spring to it, but only marginally. So I think there is something going on inside the centre brass section. Like I said I'm not curious ( brave) enough to pull apart the working clock to the point where I have this cluster in my hand. I'm curious if the shaft and the small brass gear would simply pull right out. If not, what's holding it in there, and in this particular cluster, what's keeping it from spinning freely?? I may try filling the recessed end with a few drops of carb cleaner, or maybe liquid wrench, carefully not to get any on any other part of it and see if it comes out the other end of the shaft. The 4 ended brass piece between the large brass gear and the small brass gear is interesting. It looks like it is attached to the large gear. But why is it on there? I'm wondering if it is sort of like a locking nut maybe? But even under a lighted magnifier glass it looks like one piece. I might try to see if it will rotate counterclockwise if I can figure out a way to build a jig to hold everything still without damaging the whole cluster, while I try to tap the edge of one of those 4 legs with a tiny awl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted February 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, harmony said: The 4 ended brass piece between the large brass gear and the small brass gear is interesting. It looks like it is attached to the large gear. But why is it on there? I'm wondering if it is sort of like a locking nut maybe? But even under a lighted magnifier glass it looks like one piece. I might try to see if it will rotate counterclockwise if I can figure out a way to build a jig to hold everything still without damaging the whole cluster, while I try to tap the edge of one of those 4 legs with a tiny awl. Or maybe it's one of those push on locking washers. Which are pretty much impossible to get off without destroying them. I just remembered I have one of those loupe magnifiers that make the pores of your skin look like the surface of the moon. Time to investigate closer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booger Posted February 25, 2022 Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) You guys make have missed your calling as Im sure heart surgery might be easier. When I found a dash clock that fit Booger I replaced the motor with a quartz movement Edited February 25, 2022 by Booger spel 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintage6t Posted February 25, 2022 Report Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, harmony said: The opposite end looks like there is a rubber bushing in the recess. Perhaps a plastic material. I wouldn't use carb cleaner. If there are rubber parts in there it can make them swell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted February 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2022 (edited) Well I fixed it ?! But it was pretty tough and it took lots of patience to get it all back together. I'm thinking at least 45 minutes for each gear. After awhile I figured out a method of getting a gear in place without loosing the rest of the gears. I think the issue was 3 different things. That cluster gear assembly finally got loose enough so that I can turn it from the knob on the front of the clock. The points had welded themselves together which is fairly common. There was a pin that was supposed to be at 90 degrees to one of the plates and it was about 75 degrees. The positioning of that pin is critical to the operation of the mechanical part of the clock immediately after the points go off. Beats me how it got like that. I ran it for about an hour and the points reset about ever 45 seconds which tells me it's probably running to fast. One puzzling and interesting thing is that the clock from my 48 which is dated Feb 47 has different gears than the one from my parts car that's dated April 46. First look and everything looks the same. But the gear assemblies are completely different other than the gears are the same diameter and the same number of teeth. If anyone is curious I can explain in detail how the clock works and explain why most of them don't work these days. Edited February 26, 2022 by harmony 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ194950 Posted February 26, 2022 Report Share Posted February 26, 2022 Several manufacturers made those clocks back in the day, but were they all factory installed, dealer installed and optional (I am sure) and who did put the in a car them new or later?? DJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booger Posted February 26, 2022 Report Share Posted February 26, 2022 1 hour ago, harmony said: Well I fixed it ?! But it was pretty tough and it took lots of patience to get it all back together. I'm thinking at least 45 minutes for each gear. After awhile I figured out a method of getting a gear in place without loosing the rest of the gears. I think the issue was 3 different things. That cluster gear assembly finally got loose enough so that I can turn it from the knob on the front of the clock. The points had welded themselves together which is fairly common. There was a pin that was supposed to be at 90 degrees to one of the plates and it was about 75 degrees. The positioning of that pin is critical to the operation of the mechanical part of the clock immediately after the points go off. Beats me how it got like that. I ran it for about an hour and the points reset about ever 45 seconds which tells me it's probably running to fast. One puzzling and interesting thing is that the clock from my 48 which is dated Feb 47 has different gears than the one from my parts car that's dated April 46. First look and everything looks the same. But the gear assemblies are completely different other than the gears are the same diameter and the same number of teeth. If anyone is curious I can explain in detail how the clock works and explain why most of them don't work these days. Dude. Im impressed. Thats a skill set few people possess. I collect clocks but only get into elementary function and repair. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted February 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2022 I'm impressed with the mechanism of clocks and amazed at the guy who figured it all out. Check out the size of this one piece. It basically goes back and forth like a dogs tail. The two tiny pins are about the thickness of a human hair. It's function is to regulate the speed of the clock, along with the gear and spring assembly beside it. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hiebert Posted February 27, 2022 Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 That's kinda why I dabble in cuckoo clocks. They've got finely tuned and often small guts, but nothing "tiny". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Skinner Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 You fellows are way too smart. I took a watch apart once and couldn't get it back together. You are very patient and skilled. That is why I just PB Blast it or take it to someone smarter than me. Congratulations for your success in repair work. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted March 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Tom Skinner said: You fellows are way too smart. I took a watch apart once and couldn't get it back together. You are very patient and skilled. That is why I just PB Blast it or take it to someone smarter than me. Congratulations for your success in repair work. Tom Thanks Tom. I got it keeping quite good time. It looses about one minute in 24 hours, give or take depending on the angle you're looking at the hands. I'm sure if I manually adjust the speed, I'll probably make it worse. I've put in a switch to turn it on and off for the lonely winter months. So I'll have to reset it each spring or if it's off the road for some time. However the electrical charge goes off about every one and a half minutes, just enough to make a spark that recharges the mechanical side of the clock. I checked the voltage of the battery and it was 6.36 V and 24 hours later it was exactly the same so it doesn't pull much off the battery. I'm thinking I may not have to use the switch because I just bought a 6V, 2 amp trickle charger, which I'll hook up anytime I think I won't be using the car regularly. I think these old clocks like to be kept running. It's when they sit, the points are always closed and tend to be cranky and stubborn after a long rest period. Edited March 1, 2022 by harmony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS48plm Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 I soldered a diode across the points to keep them from arcing. I had seen this in an article years ago in the P-15 Driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted March 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 24 minutes ago, JohnS48plm said: I soldered a diode across the points to keep them from arcing. I had seen this in an article years ago in the P-15 Driver. How does that diode change the operation of the clock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Skinner Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 My 1948 Royal clock loses a minute a day also. I remember my first 1948 Royal did also way back in 1973. I guess since I only drive it once or twice a week resetting forward 7 minutes once a week never bothered me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted March 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 27 minutes ago, Tom Skinner said: My 1948 Royal clock loses a minute a day also. I remember my first 1948 Royal did also way back in 1973. I guess since I only drive it once or twice a week resetting forward 7 minutes once a week never bothered me. It's a great reason for showing up late to go to the in-laws for dinner when you'd rather be out driving the car.? Ohhhh sorry honey, it's that damn clock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 I'm just thankful mine has been trouble free for the last 40 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS48plm Posted March 3, 2022 Report Share Posted March 3, 2022 The diode doesn't affect the clocks operation, it just keeps the points from arcing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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