I'm wrong - Clutch Release bearing

[maddmaxx1949]

Okay, so I didn't want to come to the forum with this but I've exhausted my internet/ebay searching skills. I ordered a throwout bearing supposedly for a 49 dodge coronet. However, the bearing size is significantly smaller, It's not big enough to slide over the transmission shaft and I can't install it on my existing sleeves because again it's too small. It was a national 1505 and from autozone (not that I expect much here) to rockauto they all List that as the bearing replacement. What gives? Am I totally missing some basic info? I tried cross referencing the bearings I had on my sleeves I pulled off and it was an Aetna a-903 and an MRC 316TN332 but no success there. I am trying to find a modern equivalent before I have to buy NOS. It's driving me nuts.

 

Edit: I should note that the sleeves I have are the original mopar part. I just need a new bearing....

Edited July 17, 2021 by maddmaxx1949

[Sniper]

Using Timken interchange https://www.collectivebearings.com/pdf/timken-bearing-cross-reference-guide.pdf

 

MRC 316TN332  is Timken 1872

 

Specs are here https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=218338&pt=1968&jsn=259

[maddmaxx1949]

Sniper thank you. I was questioning my sanity (not that I don't do that daily). Ironically, the MRC catalog did not have a cross reference and neither did Aetna. I also wonder what the 1505 bearing is applicable to. Do non-fluid drive vehicles have a narrower input shaft?

 

[maddmaxx1949]

Took me a minute as apparently the "Find" feature does not pick up the 316TN332. It's on pg. 80 for anyone looking. Thanks again. Sanity partially restored

[TodFitch]

54 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Using Timken interchange https://www.collectivebearings.com/pdf/timken-bearing-cross-reference-guide.pdf

 

MRC 316TN332  is Timken 1872

 

Specs are here https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=218338&pt=1968&jsn=259

Thanks for the link to the Timken cross reference PDF!

 

Looks like a very useful document to keep a link too. Out of curiosity, I searched for the original Chrysler part numbers for a couple of bearings and found a cross for everyone I looked for. Not an exhaustive test but sure gave me a good feeling about that document.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Non FD cars use a smaller bearing and sleeve.

[maddmaxx1949]

Thank you that's kind of what I figured. So now I have 4 that I don't need lying around.

[Bryan]

It was too cold and windy so I went in the garage to take a few measurements. One was to compare the existing clutch throwout bearing to the new one I ordered.  Rock Auto listed the National 1505 for Fluid Drive, so I ordered it.  Inner diameter 1.5",  outer 2.7"  thickness 0.625.   My existing measured 3.3 outer rim diameter, 1.847 inner, thickness was 0.8035.  It is an Aetna Bearing 903.  Started getting ticked at Rock Auto, but then remembered the transmission shaft was 1.5" diameter, just like the 1505 bearing inner diameter.   Then I checked the Non-Fluid Drive bearing Rock Auto had.  Same measurements as my existing.   The same knuckleheads that mounted the FD to the crank and cut off two of the studs also put the wrong clutch bearing on.  A 1.8" inner bearing rolling around for years on a 1.5" transmission shaft.   

[Bryan]

On 7/17/2021 at 5:27 PM, maddmaxx1949 said:

Okay, so I didn't want to come to the forum with this but I've exhausted my internet/ebay searching skills. I ordered a throwout bearing supposedly for a 49 dodge coronet. However, the bearing size is significantly smaller, It's not big enough to slide over the transmission shaft and I can't install it on my existing sleeves because again it's too small. It was a national 1505 and from autozone (not that I expect much here) to rockauto they all List that as the bearing replacement. What gives? Am I totally missing some basic info? I tried cross referencing the bearings I had on my sleeves I pulled off and it was an Aetna a-903 and an MRC 316TN332 but no success there. I am trying to find a modern equivalent before I have to buy NOS. It's driving me nuts.

 

Edit: I should note that the sleeves I have are the original mopar part. I just need a new bearing....

Been a while for you, but I just ran into the opposite problem.  1505 is listed for a Fluid Drive 48 Dodge.  Has a 1.5" inner diameter.  My FD Dodge has a 1.5" diameter input shaft on the transmission. Some Mechanic put the larger Non-Fluid drive bearing on my clutch.  Has  1.85 inner diam.

[plymouthcranbrook]

Not to excuse dumbness but it might have been either all they had or all they could find when the last clutch was installed. Or maybe they just did not know there was more than one. And it sorta fit so…..

[Loren]

I used to make a fair living correcting the same mistakes over and over from a big shop in town.

Folks would have this shop replace their clutch but it would last only 10,000 miles and it would slip again.

It seems that this shop had a policy of putting thin wave washers under the pressure plate on every clutch job they did.

The reason was that they couldn’t always adjust the clutch afterwards and they never bothered to find out why.

The cause was a worn out Clutch Fork that would not push the throw out bearing far enough to disengage the clutch or would actually bump the rotating pressure plate. The wave washers made the pressure plate fingers stick out further. However the clamping force of the pressure plate was compromised.

I would remove a small plate from the top of the bell housing then turn the engine until a pressure plate bolt came into view.

You had to loosen them in two stages then take the bolts out to let the wave washer fall out. 6 bolts, two turns of the engine to get the washers out then two turns to tighten the bolts.

From then on the clutch life was normal. I would warn the customer that when they next needed a clutch that fork should be replaced. At the time they were about $23. My clutch jobs also included a rear motor mount if need, which was something nobody else even thought of looking at.

The point is if the mechanic doesn’t know what they are doing, they take short cuts.

If the repair lasts 90 days they are off the hook.

With a old car you have to be very meticulous, do real failure analysis and be willing and able to take it apart again to get it right. Shops won’t do that. They think they can’t afford too. That’s why I do my own work.

[Bryan]

6 hours ago, Loren said:

I used to make a fair living correcting the same mistakes over and over from a big shop in town.

With an old car you have to be very meticulous, do real failure analysis and be willing and able to take it apart again to get it right. Shops won’t do that. They think they can’t afford too. That’s why I do my own work.

My problem is that none of this failed or had any symptoms. It worked with 6 crank bolts in the FD, and with a release bearing with an inner diameter larger than the transmission shaft, with 2 bolts missing on the trans to bellhousing connection, etc.   I don't have the experience to tell how worn something is, other than common sense..if the part is 1/4" thick and worn smooth less 1/32 it's still okay.  Clutch discs don't make sense to me, they put one set of rivets deep, and the others are 1/16" from the surface.  I'm going out today to recheck the outer diameter of the new National 1505 vs the inner 3 fingers on the clutch, to see if they match.   I have about 3 days left to turn it back in to Rock Auto.  Plus I hope the difference in thickness .67 (National 1505) vs .80 doesn't affect it.  Lastly, do you know where the release sleeve # 1124713 came from?  It doesn't show up in my Parts List book or the Hollander Interchange. 

[Bryan]

On 7/18/2021 at 12:13 AM, Dodgeb4ya said:

Non FD cars use a smaller bearing and sleeve.

I think larger bearing and sleeve.  

[kencombs]

17 hours ago, Bryan said:

Been a while for you, but I just ran into the opposite problem.  1505 is listed for a Fluid Drive 48 Dodge.  Has a 1.5" inner diameter.  My FD Dodge has a 1.5" diameter input shaft on the transmission. Some Mechanic put the larger Non-Fluid drive bearing on my clutch.  Has  1.85 inner diam.

 

3 hours ago, Bryan said:

I think larger bearing and sleeve.  

???

[Bryan]

I'm wrong. It is the larger one that fits on the Fluid Drive.  The inner diameter of the National 1505 is 1.5" exactly the same as the 1.5" transmission shaft. BUT THE BEARING DOES NOT FIT ON THE SHAFT, THE SLEEVE ASSEMBLY FITS ON THE SHAFT.   The bearing has to fit on the sleeve, and the bearing must be a larger diameter than 1.5" to do this.  Just came from the garage.

[Bryan]

I'm wrong on this:  It is the larger bearing that fits on the Fluid Drive.  The inner diameter of the National 1505 is 1.5" exactly the same as the 1.5" transmission shaft. BUT THE BEARING DOES NOT FIT ON THE SHAFT, THE SLEEVE ASSEMBLY FITS ON THE SHAFT.   The bearing has to fit on the sleeve, and the bearing must be a larger diameter than 1.5" to do this.

[Bryan]

And now I'm wondering how it is possible for another user to edit someone else's title.  Thought I was on my thread and changed the title - should not be possible.

 

[desoto1939]

Refer to c-1055 for fluid drive clutch bearing assembly taken from my Federal  catalog. The old catalogs come in handy again.

 

Rich Hartung  desoto1939@aol.com

 

 

 

[Sniper]

 

[desoto1939]

If the originalposter had a parts manual for his car he would hav ebeen able to verify what the MoPar part number that would hav ebeen used on his car and also the parts book also would state fluid drive or non fluid drive.

 

This is the importance of haveing the correct supporting manuals for your car. If you do not then you are like the dog chasing his tail on an endless circle.

 

Get the basic manuals for your car and read them when it is a bad weather day.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com 

[Bryan]

1 hour ago, desoto1939 said:

If the originalposter had a parts manual for his car he would hav ebeen able to verify what the MoPar part number that would hav ebeen used on his car and also the parts book also would state fluid drive or non fluid drive.

 

This is the importance of haveing the correct supporting manuals for your car. If you do not then you are like the dog chasing his tail on an endless circle.

 

Get the basic manuals for your car and read them when it is a bad weather day.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com 

Some problems aren't solved by a Parts List manual.  Parts Lists don't tell you which National bearing is correct. And when Rock Auto lists a bearing for Fluid Drives, and it's incorrect, a manual doesn't help.  Looking at the original part and taking measurements would have.  Also my clutch bearing sleeve has a number that's not in the Parts book I bought a week ago.  Neither is the 1115--- # on my differential.  Maybe the original poster can't blow $70 on a book.

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, Bryan said:

Parts Lists don't tell you which National bearing is correct.

 

You can cross the Chrysler PN easily.  Plenty of online sources will give you the specifications for the bearing which you can compare to your part on hand.

 

You can get the parts and service manual combined for under $25 from Rockauto, on CD.

[desoto1939]

As snper has stated you do not have to spend $70 for a parts book there are many that are on CD and also reprints of the original factory parts book.  So the time that you spend not getting the correct part time the car is down, time to reorder and send back the incorrect item costs time and money.  Spend the money on something that will always benefit your car and time.  Also ask questions As many of you already know I collect the various cross reference catalogs on parts for our older MoPar cars and trucks and i scan the catalogs and sell them at a resoanble price and if you purchase two or more then you get a greater discounted price.

 

But what I am finding is that very few owners will not purchase the cd or flashdrive to have the info at their finger tips.  So if you purchase two manual for $40 that includes the shipping then yo always have the info, but everyone wants someone else to just supply the info.  Yes there is a transfer of knowledge by members but also having a point of reference is always beeter becasue when you go to a NAPA you are armed with information and knowledge.  Just look at the posting i did from one of my Throw-out bearing catalogs. It shows that there were Fluid drive and standard parts and also showed the picture of the parts.

 

This is just basic knowledge that you should have for your car.  Most modern mechancis won't work on our cars becasue they take some hands on diagnosing to do and they were never trained on the older cars. So be prepared to help them at the same time.

 

I looked in my 39 Desoto pats manaual and it provided me with the MoPar numbers and they match what is in my other manuals.

 

Rich Hartung

[Bryan]

Well I'm glad you're telling me all this after I already spent $70 for the manual.   I'm just glad all of you knowledgeable people remind us how simple it is to go buy all this stuff. And then the 2 items I need in the book doesn't show squat. Glad it works for you. 

[desoto1939]

Bryan: I am sorry that you spent the $70 on the manual, which one did youpurchase, the service or the parts manual.  I am sorry that the parts book did not supply you with the information of any cross reference number against other manufacturers. You have to remember that the parts manual for your specific car was produced by the cars specific manufacturer, so Mother MoPar is only going to list their part numbers and not a Borg warner number or a fedreal Throwout bearing number.  They were ment for the dealerships, this is the same even if you have a current 2022 car the dealership parts only reference their part numbers.

 

As i stated i have been inthe hobby for 34 years and I have recognised that you sometimes need more than the parts manual for your car and also other reference manuals. You also have to know that mother MoPar did not make every part for your car.  Prime example the electrical components for the ignition were basically supplied by Autolite.  You willnot see the Autolite number for a dizzy cap or rotor or points in the car parts manual but only the MoPar reference number.  You would need to know the Autolite parts number or rotor or points part number if you are looking to purchase OEM replacement parts.  This si why the collecting of other suppliers is important.

 

Here is a solution for you to help start a library of information on your car.  When seraching in Ebay and assume you have a computer use the snip-it option to copy a page of data and then save it to a specific folder about your car.  Cheap way to get info without spending a dime.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com