Matt Wilson Posted January 28, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2022 Ah, wow! I'll certainly be interested to hear what you find. Not sure if you mean that it will be for my info (another p/n to add to my list), or if you mean you would be willing to sell to me. Either way, it could be useful. I hadn't really started trying any other sources yet, including an ad on this site, but was going to pretty soon. When you look, please see if it's a high-mounted starter too. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted January 30, 2022 Report Share Posted January 30, 2022 On 1/26/2022 at 6:10 AM, Matt Wilson said: Do you happen to know the difference between the MCL-6106 that is on some of your vehicles and MCH-6106? It seems that the MCH-6106 (i.e., the 91-06-1821 Wilson equivalent) might be the only one I can get. Thanks again. Correction....my starters are NOT MCL starters! They are MCH starters MCH 6103 AND MCH 6106. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted January 30, 2022 Report Share Posted January 30, 2022 So all my short 7-1/2" long starters are MCH 6103 (MoPar#1261484) and MCH 6106 (MoPar#1268125) They are basically exactly the same mounting wise and fitment. The plunger lever is shaped the same on both Models of starters . The only big difference is that the MCH6103 starter has a built in plunger lever return spring. This spring is on the lever pivot bolt. This causes the lever and starter pinion drive gear to retract into the nose cone. The MCH 6106 starter uses the starter switch and built in spring to force the lever and drive pinion gear to retract fully into the starter nose cone. The starter switches are different between the two models as are the nose cone portion of the starters. I have posted pics of both starters. Look carefully and you can see the items I have mentioned. Both starters interchange and fit/ work properly on the 1951-53 DT bell housing and flywheel. Both the starters are clocked positioned the same as to the floor board starter plunger . I cannot say if these short starters will work on you power wagon for sure but maybe these pics will help you decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted January 30, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2022 Good to know about being MCH instead of MCL. The MCH 6103 has the return spring on the lever pivot, as you pointed out, and my Power Wagon starter also has a return spring on that pivot. However, your pivot mount is offset pretty far to one side, while mine is offset only a little and has the spring on the opposite side from where your starter's spring is located (see photo). The MCH 6106 does not have a spring and its lever pivot is centered between two lugs (a clevis) that are centered at the switch. I wonder why some starters were deemed to need a return spring and the others not, even in the same application. My foot pedal/button in the cab has a big return spring that the pedal travels through, so it seems like that would pull the lever back and make the pivot spring unnecessary. My starter lever splits into a clevis at the top, where the foot button attaches (see second photo). Both of the MCH levers don't end in a clevis. I wonder if the foot button has a clevis instead. Based on the amount of offset in the "dogleg" of the lever from my starter (2nd photo) vs. the MCH units, I think the lever from mine would need to be swapped onto yours. I wonder how difficult that would be. Does it look like the levers on your starters are easily removed? Or I could possibly make a lever if I had to. Thanks so much for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallytoo Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 On 1/26/2022 at 6:44 PM, Matt Wilson said: Yet another update... I called one of the very few places that advertises the 1821 and 1825 starters (Filter Products Corporation), and they told me the 1825 is not in stock and the only 1821 in their system is in Winnipeg, Canada. It's not worth it for me to pay the price of the 1821 ($250 plus tax and shipping all the way from Canada), especially when there's still some risk that it won't fit and I'd have to pay return shipping. So now I'm leaning toward making a spacer to mount under the filter base. I can continue to look around to see if these units turn up for sale by individuals, but the spacer may be the way to go in the meantime. If anyone thinks of any other options, please let me know. Thanks for all the help so far. matt, i went ahead and ordered the 1821 (mch6106) from the filter pro site today. it was free shipping, and the total with core charge is $265.10 i got tired of looking for a decent used short-body starter, so i am willing to pay for new. this should allow me to install the full-flow oil filter - the original topic on this thread...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted July 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2022 On 7/3/2022 at 2:08 PM, wallytoo said: matt, i went ahead and ordered the 1821 (mch6106) from the filter pro site today. it was free shipping, and the total with core charge is $265.10 i got tired of looking for a decent used short-body starter, so i am willing to pay for new. this should allow me to install the full-flow oil filter - the original topic on this thread...... Ok, good to hear you went ahead and pulled the trigger on that. Let us know when you try to fit it, along with the filter. It'll be good to hear if it does actually fit properly. I ended up lucking out (one of the few times on this truck project, it seems), by purchasing an MCH6103 starter that was rebuilt by a guy who has been rebuilding starters for 60 years. He goes by pammiesuesguy on ebay. Seems like a really nice guy, answered all my questions patiently. I was the only bidder, so it means I got it for the starting bid that he had placed on the starter. I actually bid higher than that, as a way of showing my appreciation for his patience in answering my questions, but apparently eBay defaults to the starting bid if you win the auction as the only bidder. The starter arrived and looks basically new. I haven't tried to fit it to the truck yet, since the engine is on a stand for rebuilding, but based on the measurements and some careful eyeballing, I'm sure it will fit. Plus, it's one of the numbers recommended by Dodgeb4ya. I will probably have to swap the input lever from my old starter to this rebuilt one, or perhaps slightly modify the lever on this rebuilt one, but that should be simple, I think (I hope). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallytoo Posted July 7, 2022 Report Share Posted July 7, 2022 sounds like you got a good score on one. i’ll update with details when mine arrives as far as fit with the full-flow filter, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallytoo Posted July 16, 2022 Report Share Posted July 16, 2022 as far as swapping the levers, the starter has to be opened up to do so. the business end inside the starter has two prongs that hold small shoes (brass) which ride in a cup attached to the bendix. this is how the foot-stomp works; it slides the gear forward in the nose cone to engage with the flywheel teeth. as far as the full flow filter, it fits with the starter i ordered from filter pro. i used two cork rings supplied in a gasket set at the mounting boss, but oil is pumping out. i need to solve that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallytoo Posted July 16, 2022 Report Share Posted July 16, 2022 pics of the two starters, my original longer version vs the new wilson mfg short-nose version (similar to mch6106). a little different mechansims. external return spring being obvious. the arms are a bit different shape (i was worried about that). even though they appear the same length, the new starter is about 2" shorter. the difference is solely in the nose cone length, as the body of the starter is the same (and of course, the starter shaft is shorter in the new version). again, note the different angle of the new lever... the new starter will clearly accomodate the full-flow oil filter. better view, the end bearing cover/shaft is clearly not extended to the full-flow boss area. turns out i need not have worried about the different lever shape. the starter nose cones are clocked differently. the new lever is directly under and in-line with the foot stomp button, same as the original starter. i did add a light spring to the top of the lever leading to the floorboards to help with pulling the bendix assembly away from the ring gear (may not have needed this, but it probably won't hurt). installed starter and full-flow oil filter. resolved the oil leak by using a thin circle of permetex blue where the cork gaskets seat on the filter. final verdict - the wilson mch6106 does work in the b-series trucks, and will allow for installation of the full-flow oil filter assembly on the trucks that have that capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted July 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2022 A lot of good info, Wally. You're right about needing to open up the starters if I'm going to swap the levers, and that should have occurred to me before. I'd much rather not have to do that, so I will probably try bending the lever on the one I just bought. The clocking of the two starters (bolt pattern location relative to lever) is not identical, but there's not a huge difference, so hopefully I can make it fit. I also took a closer look at the new (to me) starter and noticed that when fully retracted, the pinion gear protrudes from the housing farther than the gear in my original starter. The gear is also a little longer and its travel is less. All of those things make me wonder once again if it will work out not. It will be several months (at least) before I will know. At least the nose is the same length (3") on both starters. Anyway, I'm happy yours seems to be working out. Also glad you got the oil leak fixed. When you talk about a cork gasket, are you referring to the gasket between the filter and the engine block? I guess I figured that would take a paper gasket of some sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallytoo Posted July 19, 2022 Report Share Posted July 19, 2022 (edited) the wilson starter had the same issue as far as the distance the pinion gear protrudes and travel distance. i hedged my bets by adding a thin washer between the bellhousing and each of the starter mount ears to shim it out just a touch. it is working without grinding; it releases from engagement (no run-on). is it possible i didn't need to shim it? of course. but i looked at the same thing you noted and decided i only wanted to install it once. re: the cork gasket - yes. there are two used on the filter boss. one for the inlet, one for the outlet. they are relatively small diameter, and perhaps could have been a smidge thicker (which would have prevented the leaks), as it is just a compression fit between the boss and the filter housing. it's also possible they are paper, not cork - i installed them back when i put the engine back in the truck 2 years ago, when i didn't realize the starter was going to interfere with the placement of the filter. so, those gaskets have been there and i don't specifically recall what they were made out of... Edited July 19, 2022 by wallytoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted July 19, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2022 1 hour ago, wallytoo said: the wilson starter had the same issue as far as the distance the pinion gear protrudes and travel distance. i hedged my bets by adding a thin washer between the bellhousing and each of the starter mount ears to shim it out just a touch. it is working without grinding; it releases from engagement (no run-on). is it possible i didn't need to shim it? of course. but i looked at the same thing you noted and decided i only wanted to install it once. re: the cork gasket - yes. there are two used on the filter boss. one for the inlet, one for the outlet. they are relatively small diameter, and perhaps could have been a smidge thicker (which would have prevented the leaks), as it is just a compression fit between the boss and the filter housing. it's also possible they are paper, not cork - i installed them back when i put the engine back in the truck 2 years ago, when i didn't realize the starter was going to interfere with the placement of the filter. so, those gaskets have been there and i don't specifically recall what they were made out of... Ok, that makes me feel a lot better. I was also already thinking about whether I might need to shim out the starter by using some washers or something, but didn't know if that would work. Sounds like a pretty good chance it will work, based on your experience, though. I'm a little more hopeful again. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallytoo Posted August 16, 2023 Report Share Posted August 16, 2023 updating some info. the wilson starter that i purchased last summer failed this winter. so, i got about 4 months out of it. my recommendation - don't waste your money on a Wilson Starter; poor quality internals used, and i'm out the $265 that i spent on it. it has an internal "dead short" with a load on it. on the bench, i can get it to spin just fine attached to a battery and engaging the lever. in the truck (key no on, no power other than the battery cables), when the starter pedal is pushed, there is a brief partial rotation, and then nothing. an audible "szzt" occurs. pull the starter, put on bench, attach battery cables, starter operates. put back in truck, same thing. it cannot handle any load (like the load needed to turn the engine rotating mass/internals). it did end up fitting without using the washer shims, but it won't rotate with a load applied. verdict - Wilson Starters are junk. spend your dollars elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted August 17, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, wallytoo said: updating some info. the wilson starter that i purchased last summer failed this winter. so, i got about 4 months out of it. my recommendation - don't waste your money on a Wilson Starter; poor quality internals used, and i'm out the $265 that i spent on it. it has an internal "dead short" with a load on it. on the bench, i can get it to spin just fine attached to a battery and engaging the lever. in the truck (key no on, no power other than the battery cables), when the starter pedal is pushed, there is a brief partial rotation, and then nothing. an audible "szzt" occurs. pull the starter, put on bench, attach battery cables, starter operates. put back in truck, same thing. it cannot handle any load (like the load needed to turn the engine rotating mass/internals). it did end up fitting without using the washer shims, but it won't rotate with a load applied. verdict - Wilson Starters are junk. spend your dollars elsewhere. Ughhh.... That's terrible. I'm sorry it turned out that way. I'll try to remember that about the Wilson starters. At least you found out that the shims are not needed. Hopefully you can find another starter that will fit, or maybe get the Wilson unit rebuilt? Just to update everyone on my situation....I have no update yet on the starter or filter. I still have a ways to go with my engine rebuild before I'll get to the starter and filter. Hopefully later this year? Edited August 17, 2023 by Matt Wilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallytoo Posted August 17, 2023 Report Share Posted August 17, 2023 yeah, i dropped it off at a local rebuilder's. he rebuilt the starter for my skidder last winter. that one works better than ever, so he should be able to make it work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Roger Posted September 13, 2023 Report Share Posted September 13, 2023 @Matt Wilson I have the same diamond plate, but without an oil filter. Could you share some pictures of what you ended up doing? Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted September 15, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2023 (edited) On 9/13/2023 at 3:20 PM, Lil Red Roger said: @Matt Wilson I have the same diamond plate, but without an oil filter. Could you share some pictures of what you ended up doing? Cheers! Hi @Lil Red Roger Unfortunately, I haven't gotten far enough along on the engine rebuild to install the filter. I am making progress, but I've got a ways to go to get to that point. Edited September 15, 2023 by Matt Wilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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