Total Overdrive Failure

[James_Douglas]

Frankly,

I think some of you guys are just being apologists. I was very clear what I wanted AND that I was willing to pay a premium to get it.

I did not get what I paid for. No doubt I will have to take the unit apart myself, at my expense, and fix whatever is wrong. But I am asking that if I pay for someone to overhaul a transmission that it works.

I am not asking for my car to run like a new car.

These cars ran everyday for 20 years when new. There is no reason why after a full overhaul they can not do the same again.

I have had 3 people report that they have had serious issues with one of his OD units. George’s has stated that he has built and sold something like 20 of OD units in the last 2 years. With my unit that makes 4 units with issues or a 25% problem rate.

Let me say that again, a 25% problem rate over 24 months and 20 units.

Some of the folks on this forum have developed a case of “the cult of George”. I think George has a lot of great experience and will lecture your ear off for hours and impart good information.

I am not impugning his character. I am however taking issue with his quality control and his follow through with those of us some distance away from him.

On the practical front, I can assure you that all the technical issues with the installation are true and correct. If you think that my personal quality and assurance talents are questionable, then have a talk with Mr. Coatney who has seen my work first hand.

There is little doubt that I am being hot under the collar on this issue. I have invested a lot of time trying to deal with something that should have been smooth. I apologize to those of you I have been curt with.

James

[Plymouthy Adams]

Thanks James..I know you have reached to end of your rope and your frustration level is at the breaking point..I do feel your pain..as very few of us are within commute distance to help assist we can only advise some of the more obvious..that was my intent..while we look real close at the wiring we connect and terminal we install etc..sometime the grounds are overlooked as they are pretty much expected to be there and in good order...and yes an overhauled item should have some degree of dependability..there are plenty OD's operating daily without any hint of malfufution even after all these years..you deserve a working unit...and with the messages from other forum readers to George..I feel you will get service..as he has just become aware of your most recent failure...for what it is worth..hang in there...at least the car is still operational as a standard tranny..you are not completely off the road...

[PatS....]

James, I too feel your pain and anger. I realize how frustrating it must be and the expense only makes it worse. I have read all of your posts and I'm sure you have a far better understanding of the OD and electrics of the unit than George does by now.

I would venture to say that maybe trying to find someone other than George to attempt a troubleshoot simply to get another perspective on it.

Maybe Jon Robinson over on the DeSoto board might have an idea or two.

Anyway, I'm rooting for you and I'm sure that you will track down the problem because it was operating well for 4 months.

Keep a stiff upper lip as they used to say!!!!

[Normspeed]

James, rather than beating you up, I thought we were throwing out suggestions that might help you track down the problem.

Hope you get it all unraveled. My work here is done:)

[Don Coatney]

There is no reason a 60 year old car that has been rebuilt should not run like new and be as dependable as new. There are several threads on this forum about the trips made in these cars and the degree of dependability.

I have seen the work James has done on his car and it is top notch. His engine runs like the day it was new and everything on the car worked as it should on my last visit.

I have seen the work George does and it appeared to me to be top notch. I know several folks who have been very satisfied with his products and now there is at least one person who is not satisfied.

James and George are both my friends. I will sit on the sidelines and see how this unfolds.

[blueskies]

You can't expect a 60 year old car with 60 year old technology to work all that well with todays driving conditions every day.... the only way to make it reliable is with a modern drivetrain.... Rebuilding something with 60 year old parts does not make it reliable and new' date=' it's still 60 years old....with the modern drivetrain and be a lot more reliable doing it.[/quote']

I dissagree with just about everything you have said Norm.

Just about every "modern" car I have owned has had more frequent or severe problems than my 57 year old Plymouth. I've spent $2000 in repairs on my wife's '02 Tahoe in the last three weeks alone. Water pump, fuel pump, and power steering pump all failed within days of each other. I've also replaced the transmission, and the new re-man unit is now failing. I went through the same bullsh!t with our GMC Suburban replacing every single replaceable part on the rig, aside from the engine block. I've owned multiples of each of Mercedes, Chevy, Ford, VW, Issusu, and Toyota, and none of them have been any more reliable than my 57 year old Plymouth.

Much like James Desoto, my Plymouth has been cleaned, rebuilt or replaced from stem to stern, and is essentially a new car through out. It was not designed to be disposable like modern cars, and there is no reason what so ever that it won't perform as well as any modern car on the road today. And I drive it as such. My car will easily make it from coast to coast, and if for whatever reason there may be a mechanical failure, there is nothing on the car that can't be had overnight through any major retailer. The Chrysler flathead six engine was used for decades past the production of my car, in everything from airport tugs, water pumps, welders, and combines, so parts are still readily available. The systems on the car are so simple that anyone with mechanical inclination can work on the car. Not so for a new car, of any make.

I find it ironic that you are such a nay-sayer on the potential reliability of these cars when your car rarely makes it to the end of your driveway. Perhaps if you actually drove your car, you would feel differently.

Pete

[blueskies]

Overdrive Failure

Barring something I have missed, it is apparent that my George Asche 3-Speed with BW overdrive has had an overdrive failure.

James-

Enjoyed chatting with you Saturday. Sorry to hear of your OD woes. I think your problem is probably in the blocker ring / sun gear. I looked through my pics, and don't have anything that would provide any usefull info. It sounds to me like there is perhaps some debris in the unit causing the blocker ring to stick, preventing the solenoid from doing it's thing. This is the one part of the OD that I did not dissassemble in my unit, as it looked like it was OK with a visual inspection. Guess I was lucky with mine, as it works just fine.

Unfortunately, I think the only way to find out what is going on is to pull the tranny, and open it up for a look see.

Hope you are able to resolve all the "issues", both with your OD and with Asche, and get it working as it should.

Pete

[Mr. Belvedere]

I don't see any correlation between the human body vs. an automobile I suspect my car will be around long after I am dead and gone, unfortuneatly they can be overhauled and we cant.

[Norm's Coupe]

Pete,

You've been listing to Don Coatney too much. I do move my coupe in and out of the garage a lot, even when not driving it. That's usually so I can do other things in the garage. While I don't take it on any long trips like you and Don have (and have no plans to), I do drive it around town. As I mentioned in previous posts, I just don't publicize it when I do drive it. Hence, Don thinks I just drive it in and out of the garage all the time.

Sounds like you've had a lot of trouble with your Tahoe, but there's always a few bad apples in any make of car you buy. My 85 Plymouth was a bad apple too. Think we've all been down that road at least once. Sounds like you were the unlucky one to get one of those bad apples with your Tahoe. I'm still driving my 95 Chevy Lumina with no plans to get rid of it. The only repairs to it other than everyday upkeep like batteries, tires, etc. was to replace a TCC valve switch a few years ago in the transmission. That was only about $300. I did have to put a new alternator in it last week. Other than that, that's the only money I've put into it. Probably under $1,000 in the 10 years I've owned it. In my book you can't beat that with a stick. It's also never had to be towed anywhere for any repairs (knock on wood). My wife has an 02 Kia she bought new (and everyone says they're bad). The only money spent on it so far is for oil changes. So, I stand by my comment about new crate engines and transmissions being more reliable.

[Frank M.]

James; I feel for you and am in your corner. Dont back down on your feelings. If this happened to some others--they might be talking different. Blueskies is another I agree with as to what Norm said. Just My feelings on this issue.

[277 HEMI]

Frankly,

I think some of you guys are just being apologists. I was very clear what I wanted AND that I was willing to pay a premium to get it.

I did not get what I paid for. No doubt I will have to take the unit apart myself, at my expense, and fix whatever is wrong. But I am asking that if I pay for someone to overhaul a transmission that it works.

I am not asking for my car to run like a new car.

These cars ran everyday for 20 years when new. There is no reason why after a full overhaul they can not do the same again.

I have had 3 people report that they have had serious issues with one of his OD units. George’s has stated that he has built and sold something like 20 of OD units in the last 2 years. With my unit that makes 4 units with issues or a 25% problem rate.

Let me say that again, a 25% problem rate over 24 months and 20 units.

Some of the folks on this forum have developed a case of “the cult of George”. I think George has a lot of great experience and will lecture your ear off for hours and impart good information.

I am not impugning his character. I am however taking issue with his quality control and his follow through with those of us some distance away from him.

On the practical front, I can assure you that all the technical issues with the installation are true and correct. If you think that my personal quality and assurance talents are questionable, then have a talk with Mr. Coatney who has seen my work first hand.

There is little doubt that I am being hot under the collar on this issue. I have invested a lot of time trying to deal with something that should have been smooth. I apologize to those of you I have been curt with.

James

You took the words right out of my mouth.

277 hemi

[Young Ed]

Not sure how you can say it should have been smooth. Rebuilt or even new mechanical items have defects all the time. The engine thats in my truck was completely rebuilt by a trusted machine shop in town. Flathead guru did racing ford flatheads etc etc. It wasn't in the hottank long enough and some gunk remained in the oil galley and took out all the bearings after 172 miles. Now there was about a 5 year gap between when it was built and when the car was finished and the guy who built it had died. So no warranty. Through trading Dad had another flathead ready to go and we switched that one in and then I got it after it was rebuilt again. We spent the time we were supposed to be at the Iowa national plymouth club meet switching his engine out.

Now what George does for you as his customer to correct the issue remains to be seen. I believe that even though the rebuilder was dead and his shop under new ownership we still got a break on the re-rebuild.

[Norm's Coupe]

Ed, My brother in law had a similar thing happen to him twice with engine rebuilds. Back in the 80's he had to original Flathead V8 rebuilt by a guy many Ford V8 people knew and trusted, and who usually did good work. Not sure what he paid for that rebuild. However, he finally got the car finished enough to get the car going in about 1990. The engine ran, but it always had a slight miss in it. Tried everything short of tearing it down and rebuilding again. Never could get that slight miss out of it.

After that, about 1999 or 2000 he picked up another engine. Then had someone rebuild it at a cost of about $2,000. Waited about 2 years before he decided to put it in his 36 Ford. Filled it with water on the engine stand only to find out that the block had a slight leak in one of the piston ports. He had not paid to have the engine checked for cracks, so.........the shop that did it simply cleaned it, bored it, and rebuilt it. Another $2,000 down the drain.

After that, he bought another block to rebuild. Decided to do this one his self. He took all the new parts from the previous engine and rebuilt it at a very low cost. Now that engine is in his 36 Ford and runs great.

So......I guess the moral of that story is, if you want something done right and to your standards, it's probably better to do it yourself like Pete did with his OD unit. There are lots of books and people around to help you if you get stuck along the way. However, it does take a little longer.

BUYING REPRODUCTION PARTS FROM VENDORS:

We all have complained about vendors and the reproduction parts they sell from time to time.

Again, these two examples happened to my brother in law over the years.

First, when he was rebuilding the body he ordered a new reproduction Toe Board for the drivers side of his 36 Ford from one of the top Ford vendors that even people here have mentioned a few times. Well...........it didn't fit. It was slightly too large. The 36 Ford Toe Board is made out of wood like the originals. So......he could have cut one out of a board his self instead of ordering this one. As it turns out, he had to cut it down anyway to make it fit.

Second, about 10 years ago he ordered new running boards and rubber from the same well known Ford vendor. Since his coupe was already together he decided to save them for later and just put them over the rafters in the garage. Well........about a week or so ago after getting his new engine in he was putting the front clip back on. Decided to paint the new running boards to match the car and glue the rubber on. Guess what. Went to install the running boards on the coupe and none of the mounting hole lined up and the running board was a little too long. To make matters worse, according to him all 35 and 36 Fords have the same running boards on models, sedans and coupes. So.........he has no idea what they will fit and he's out a good chunk of money for them. He no longer has a receipt and even if he did the purchase was made about 10 years ago, so they probably wouldn't take them back anyway.

Now, both of these items were purchased from a VERY well known national Ford only vendor who should know what they are selling. The vendor is so well know that when you mention you need something, 99% of the time their name is mentioned first.

The whole point is, no matter how much a rebuilder or vendor knows (or thinks they know), they do make mistakes. Another thing is, in this hobby we are all going to have some type of problem in regards to the subject from time to time, and we're going to waste some money from time to time. May not make us happy, but it happens. I just chalk it up to experience and try not to make the same mistake twice. It's all part of the hobby.

P.S.

I also know a guy who drove about 600 miles to pick up an old Flathead V8 engine block that was supposed to be good. Paid $500 for it. Got it home had it checked out and the block was cracked. Again, it's all part of the hobby and we just have to suck it up.

[James_Douglas]

Norm,

If I did not do whatever it takes to make my clients happy I would not eat. If I don’t deliver what THEY expected I eat it, not them.

I see no reason why the same standard should not apply to people who bill themselves as professionals in the old car parts business.

If you buy a core from a hobbyist then you take your chances. When you buy from people who are in the business of supplying parts to the hobby, then they should be held to the same standard as any other business.

I guess I just have, and expect, a higher standard of behavior from the folks I deal with.

James

[Don Coatney]

James;

Have I missed a posting or have you not yet posted the results of the phone conversation you were going to have with George Asche yesterday?

[Norm's Coupe]

James, I will agree when in business you normally try to keep the customer happy. There is a line in the sand though, just like the supplier may not always be right, the customer isn't always right either. Works both ways, depends on the circumstances. I still won't take a side in this problem though simply because it's really none of my business either way. However, as many of us know, the people in the old car parts business don't always do what we expect. Even people in the everyday car business don't. Case in point.

Yesterday my wife walked across the street to get the mail out of the box. When she turned around to cross the street back to the driveway the city recycle truck stopped. She thought, "how nice". Well.........I guess one of the guys in the truck had spotted the coupe sitting in the garage and wanted to know what year the car was (garage door was open at the time). She told him what it was, then he said he owned a 65 Ford and was a member of the Ford Club. Then she mentioned her brother was in the club too, then started mentioning other people we know in the Ford Club. Then she came to one friend of ours who owns a repair shop. Then the guy comes back and says, "You mean "Crabby (the guys name in this spot)". Wife chuckled and said, yes that's him. Evidently, for some reason this guy must catch our friend on his bad days. Yes, being an auto shop can make a person crabby and yes the friend is crabby sometimes, especially when real busy. But......if you just ignore the crabby part when he's that way, he'll still bend over backwards to help you if he can if he knows you. If not he'll simply tell you to take your business elsewhere. I've stood right next to him in the shop when he's done that talking on the phone, then hangs up on that person. Doesn't seem to hurt him too much, even the recycle guy still takes his car into him for work. Actually, once you get to know the guy, he's really a nice jovial guy and fun to be around. You just have to get by the crabby part first.

Point is, these guys get a lot of people looking for nothing. Not saying this is in your case. But......it does happen a lot with these people, so they are more defensive when a problem comes up. Sadly, the person such as yourself ends up taking some of the flak because of it.

[Don St Peter]

James

I'm with Don Coatney and am anxiously awaiting the post on the phone conversation you had with George

Don St Peter

[James_Douglas]

I talked with George On Monday. I went over all the symptoms in detail. I told him what I had done in my troubleshooting steps.

I asked for any advice he may have. Sondra sat across from the desk to make sure my tone was light and productive.

I told George that there were a couple more tests I wanted to run during the week and that I would get back to him by Friday with the results.

He did not come up with much that we had not discussed on previous occasions. He did say that I may want to make a steel plate with a pin in it and bolt it in place of the solenoid. That is assuming of course, that I can get the pawl to engage into the sun ring.

He seemed to push the idea, which he said was around in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s of using a cable on a special adaptor that replaces the solenoid and all the electronics and makes the OD a manual affair.

We talked about the balking ring and the pawl raceway a little bit. I got the sense that he still felt, although he did not come out and say it, that he still thinks that something is wrong with the electronic control system.

At no point did George say anything about sending me parts (or money) for the parts that I had to purchase 2 months back to make his unit work in the first place. He did not say anything about the parts I sent back to him that I did not or could not use. Nor did he say anything about what would come next if after my continued testing this week yielded no definitive results beyond confirming that the electronics are operational.

I will make time over the next few days to flog it some more. If that yields nothing I will talk to George and see what he says.

I am then inclined to have a man that runs a professional auto repair shop here in town take a look at it and try to confirm/deny that the electronic control systems are working or not. This man is big in the local Model “A” club and works on many high dollar classic cars here in San Francisco. I trust him.

At that point if it becomes apparent that something is wrong on the inside of the OD, I will talk with George and see what if anything he will do for me.

I will keep you posted.

James

PS. He did say, yet again, that “I have built 20 of these and this is the only one that…”

[277 HEMI]

I talked with George On Monday. I went over all the symptoms in detail. I told him what I had done in my troubleshooting steps.

I asked for any advice he may have. Sondra sat across from the desk to make sure my tone was light and productive.

I told George that there were a couple more tests I wanted to run during the week and that I would get back to him by Friday with the results.

He did not come up with much that we had not discussed on previous occasions. He did say that I may want to make a steel plate with a pin in it and bolt it in place of the solenoid. That is assuming of course, that I can get the pawl to engage into the sun ring.

He seemed to push the idea, which he said was around in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s of using a cable on a special adaptor that replaces the solenoid and all the electronics and makes the OD a manual affair.

We talked about the balking ring and the pawl raceway a little bit. I got the sense that he still felt, although he did not come out and say it, that he still thinks that something is wrong with the electronic control system.

At no point did George say anything about sending me parts (or money) for the parts that I had to purchase 2 months back to make his unit work in the first place. He did not say anything about the parts I sent back to him that I did not or could not use. Nor did he say anything about what would come next if after my continued testing this week yielded no definitive results beyond confirming that the electronics are operational.

I will make time over the next few days to flog it some more. If that yields nothing I will talk to George and see what he says.

I am then inclined to have a man that runs a professional auto repair shop here in town take a look at it and try to confirm/deny that the electronic control systems are working or not. This man is big in the local Model “A” club and works on many high dollar classic cars here in San Francisco. I trust him.

At that point if it becomes apparent that something is wrong on the inside of the OD, I will talk with George and see what if anything he will do for me.

I will keep you posted.

James

PS. He did say, yet again, that “I have built 20 of these and this is the only one that…”

Who cares if they don’t work and what I can see in this form there are a lot that don’t

[De Soto Frank]

Not to make light of James's situation,

After 1939, there were probably more overdrives that "worked" than didn't, otherwise Detroit wouldn't have kept offering them from 1935 until the mid-1960's.

(And the public wouldn't have kept buying them.)

AND, the last incarnation of the American OD was the Borg-Warner R-10, that debuted around 1948 or so, and was used into the 1960's, when Detroit finally dropped the option. The only major change was to 12-volt controls.

Rambler, Studebaker, and Ford were all big on OD in the '50s & early '60s... even mighty Chevrolet jumped on the OD band-wagon in '55...

Back to James - I'm sorry to hear of all your woe in this project, James; I'm one of the guys who was pushing for the OD package for your car... I hope that you are able to get things resolved.

Good luck !

Frank McMullen