-30C...Ruptured Heating Pipe In The Garage

[keithb7]

Best laid car work plans thwarted again today. Came home last night to water on the floor in the garage. Burst copper pipe. Of course the water attempted to find its way to the ocean and ended up in the basement too. Damages not too bad. No insurance claim will be made. My wife and I rounded up tools at 10 pm. We were cutting copper and soldering until 2 AM.  The burst was part of the the main hydronic heating system in the house. We shut off the heat for about 3.5 hours. At -30 things were cooling off quickly. Great motivation to get creative real quick and come up with an emergency repair. 

 

We know what caused this and have addressed it. My wife is a good hand and was right in there with the repair. 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by keithb7

[Ulu]

Oh buddy . . . I am so glad I don’t live in the great frozen North anymore when I see such things.

 

my wife isn’t worth a crap when it comes to stuff like that. I can barely get her to hold the end of a screwdriver.

[Los_Control]

Weeel son you need to re-pipe that house, and for the low price of 6 zillion $$ I can help you out!

 

Joking of course. Copper was the big kid on the block. Today I think pex is a better choice.

Pex is a modern plastic that can swell with freezing water & not break. When frozen you will not have water flow, add some heat and will thaw out and water flows and pex shrinks back to normal size. No leaks.

 

I am only suggesting that if you have some exposed plumbing you may consider replacing it with pex.

I am not suggesting to rip out the plumbing from the walls and replacing it.

 

I remember one job I was lying under the house trying to sweat the copper pipes together. There was a steady drip of water and could not stop it.

I knew about the bread trick. Stuff bread in the pipe and act as a sponge ... soaks up the water long enough for you to solder it, then dissolves & flushes through the pipe.

Seriously one drop of water will cause your copper fitting solder to fail.

 

I can tell you that using glazed doughnuts does not work ... the glaze will contaminate your weld ... good old white bread does work.

 

Everything I can reach in my house, I am converting to pex. Claimed to last 100 years, easy to work with. A mechanical clamp instead of soldering.

[keithb7]

 

Lol. I imagined 7 zillion, so you seem cheap! ?

 

We were successful on 5 out of 6 solder joints. One must have had a drop of water behind it. 1 did not 100% seal.  The 1 bad sweat joint dripped 1 drop every 1-2 seconds. I put a tupperware container under it and went to be at 2AM. This morning I headed to Home depot bought a Shark Bite union and inserted it. All fixed! Just the clean up still. Need to reclaim my garage now and get my 38 Plym back in there. She spent the night out in the driveway at -30.

 

I don't think my radiant hydronic baseboard heater in the shop can radiate heat with Pex. I assume I'd need some type of new fan-dangled wall mount radiant unit.

 

This madness occurred because 4 years ago I shut off the hot water feeding the garage. I did not want to heat it 24/7. All seemed fine. 3 winters later no issues. I assumed incorrectly, that the heater pipes would have been filled with some type of anti-freeze. As this 4th winter, disaster. The pipe split open. Actually in 2 spots.

 

So for now, we will cycle hot water through it. I'll set the garage thermostat to about 35F. If I do decide to shut off that heat , I will insert 2 ball valves and a drain. So I can evacuate any water in that particular loop through the garage.  Later if wanted, when it warms up!

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by keithb7

[Veemoney]

A lot of water can escape through a crack that big. Sounds like you had some luck limiting the damage and a fairly quick fix to get back up and running. Successful rebound from a bad event.?

 

When I was a kid we had one of those tub washers with the wringer rollers that would transfer the clothing to 2 rinsing tubs. The back room they were in had no heat so we kept the pipes wrapped. On one occasion we lost a pipe to the freeze. Hot water pipe always will freeze first. The floor was like an ice rink that time with the trapped water. I had to fix it being the oldest boy but everthing was galvanized there so measure and head to the hardware store. 

[keithb7]

Yes we were lucky. It could have been very bad. We were out for the evening. Got home at 10 pm. The front door has a keyless entry lock. It was not working. Due to cold temps too maybe? We had to go into the house via the garage. Opened the garage door and saw the water. Oh crap!  We jumped on it.

 

Had we come in the front door, we would have just gone to bed and found a Mississippi tributary in the morning. Disaster averted. Phew.

 

[Veemoney]

I used a sharkbite fitting in a tough spot 2 years ago. Man that is the ticket when you have 1 spot that just won't take. 

 

When I filled my system originally, I used a pink RV anti-freeze throughout the whole system so if I decided to not heat the garage I could just close that loop and not have to drain it. 

[keithb7]

4 minutes ago, Veemoney said:

I used a sharkbite fitting in a tough spot 2 years ago. Man that is the ticket when you have 1 spot that just won't take. 

 

When I filled my system originally, I used a pink RV anti-freeze throughout the whole system so if I decided to not heat the garage I could just close that loop and not have to drain it. 

 

See that makes sense, and would have been ideal when they built this house. That was long before I took over risk mitigation of this house.

[RobertKB]

Sorry to hear this, Keith. I know you’ll make the best of a bad situation! Glad you caught it in time before really serious damage could occur. 
 

My house was built in 1967 and of course had all copper piping. No problems so far but I always keep a close watch on things. 
 

No need to worry about the ‘38 Plymouth being outside. It won’t be the first time it’s seen cold and snow!! These old cars were once daily drivers that saw all weathers. 

[Dan Hiebert]

That pex stuff is the go-to here in our part of the frozen north for remodels and new builds, especially "upta camp" where the buildings will be vacant for a while during the winter (if they have running water in the first place).  They use a similar (maybe the same, haven't looked into it) product for new hydronic heating systems.  About 50/50 radiant heating or baseboards.

[Los_Control]

To be honest, if I had copper pipes I probably just maintain what I had. Nothing wrong with copper.

 

I do feel pex is a more modern, superior product then copper, but I would not spend the effort or cost to replace good copper.

 

My house was built in 1948 with galvanized pipes & already much of it has been replaced with pvc.

Most Hokey pokey plumbing job I have ever seen, but it does not leak.

Just saying I have already replaced all the cast iron sewer lines, The supply lines are next, walls are open for access. So I am going with pex.

If it was already plumbed with copper I would just keep it and modify it as needed.

[Ulu]

Personally I never trusted that pex or shark bite stuff for my house. I do use it on some large aquarium set ups and I have a water softener and reverse osmosis filter system using pex.

 

I was thinking about using it as a fuel line through the tunnel of my little kit car. It will go places that will be hard to get a stainless steel tube. I don’t know about the fittings as far as fuel resistance. I think I would put compression fittings on rather than the push on type which have rubber O-rings.

 

I don’t know if anyone has ever use this pex as a fuel line. I’m thinking this plastic is the same as what they’re using for chainsaw fueling and such.

 

High density poly propylene.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Ulu

[Los_Control]

No idea about a fuel line, Natural Gas companies have been using it for decades as a direct burial replacement for metal pipes.

Gas piping is yellow, while water it is red & blue for Hot & cold water. I think the color is the only difference so you can tell at a glance what it is for.

 

I would not suggest it for fuel line. Common sizes are 1/2", 3/4",1" ... they probably have some smaller sizes but I personally have never seen them.

 

 

 

While  it is easy to work with compared to copper or other rigid plumbing pipes, certainly is not automotive fuel line.

 

 

 

 

[kencombs]

Pex and PE (gas) are similar but not the same.  Even Pex comes in two distinct types.  One is expanded before installing fittings the other is not.  Both work fine but the first has larger ID fittings in a given pipe size.  And the tools to use it are more expensive.

 

Having experience with steel, pex and copper my choice is pex every time.  

 

I haven't seen any steel gas piping used outside the home in years, it's all PE to the meter here.

[Plymouthy Adams]

we normally have mild temps....my hydronic loop in to an exchanger in the ducting...not a radiant loop by any means though I have one set aside for the upstairs some day......just sitting in the kitchen with a coffee and talking with mums about the earthquakes in SC...bud lives right in the epicenter of that.....said he thought he was back in Iraq and was looking for something to dive under...the AC came on....it is 80+ today.....I have been in the yard pulling weeds and such and was about to head out back and get the welder cranked up and do the few small repairs on the Morris doors....would be nice to start the year off spraying some primer.

[Dave72dt]

On 12/28/2021 at 7:16 PM, Ulu said:

Personally I never trusted that pex or shark bite stuff for my house. I do use it on some large aquarium set ups and I have a water softener and reverse osmosis filter system using pex.

 

I was thinking about using it as a fuel line through the tunnel of my little kit car. It will go places that will be hard to get a stainless steel tube. I don’t know about the fittings as far as fuel resistance. I think I would put compression fittings on rather than the push on type which have rubber O-rings.

 

I don’t know if anyone has ever use this pex as a fuel line. I’m thinking this plastic is the same as what they’re using for chainsaw fueling and such.

 

High density poly propylene.

You might try the plastic line used on modern fuel injected systems.  It's not as flexible as the clear/semi clear tubing used on small engines but it's tough and may wear better.

[Tooljunkie]

On 12/27/2021 at 3:02 PM, Los_Control said:

Weeel son you need to re-pipe that house, and for the low price of 6 zillion $$ I can help you out!

 

Joking of course. Copper was the big kid on the block. Today I think pex is a better choice.

Pex is a modern plastic that can swell with freezing water & not break. When frozen you will not have water flow, add some heat and will thaw out and water flows and pex shrinks back to normal size. No leaks.

 

I am only suggesting that if you have some exposed plumbing you may consider replacing it with pex.

I am not suggesting to rip out the plumbing from the walls and replacing it.

 

I remember one job I was lying under the house trying to sweat the copper pipes together. There was a steady drip of water and could not stop it.

I knew about the bread trick. Stuff bread in the pipe and act as a sponge ... soaks up the water long enough for you to solder it, then dissolves & flushes through the pipe.

Seriously one drop of water will cause your copper fitting solder to fail.

 

I can tell you that using glazed doughnuts does not work ... the glaze will contaminate your weld ... good old white bread does work.

 

Everything I can reach in my house, I am converting to pex. Claimed to last 100 years, easy to work with. A mechanical clamp instead of soldering.

So i assume the brass (sintered metal) fittings that were failing have all been resolved?  There were a lot of failures a few years ago. They were disintegrating. 

[Tooljunkie]

Water line issues are never any fun. The current one that haunts me is my line in the pumphouse freezes. Solved for now, but next summer things are going to change. 

[Los_Control]

17 hours ago, Tooljunkie said:

So i assume the brass (sintered metal) fittings that were failing have all been resolved?  There were a lot of failures a few years ago. They were disintegrating. 

I can not answer that.

IMHO the advantage of pex is the plastic lines will expand when frozen. Then return to normal when thawed.

 

The fittings are all made by different manufactures and of different qualities. You can buy every fitting needed in plastic instead of brass. ... I assume brass may be better.

Certainly cost more, I would bet they are all made over seas.

 

We all know when water freezes ice expands, so if the lines expand there will be less pressure on the fittings? ... I would still want brass. Although the pex is also plastic.

Proper made plastic may be better the better choice. Depends on the manufacturer.

 

 

 

[Ulu]

The problem they had was the brass fittings they were using were not machined out of barstock. They were made in a hot press using powdered metallurgy.

 

This works pretty darn well for a whole lot of parts if it’s done right.

 

If it’s done wrong she comes apart under pressure.

[Bryan]

PEX is great for water line. With a good crimping tool which is cheap you can easily do it yourself. We let the water drip slowly from a faucet in each room if the temperature gets below 28F. Keeps pipes from freezing.

[Young Ed]

On 1/1/2022 at 3:37 PM, Los_Control said:

I can not answer that.

IMHO the advantage of pex is the plastic lines will expand when frozen. Then return to normal when thawed.

 

The fittings are all made by different manufactures and of different qualities. You can buy every fitting needed in plastic instead of brass. ... I assume brass may be better.

Certainly cost more, I would bet they are all made over seas.

 

We all know when water freezes ice expands, so if the lines expand there will be less pressure on the fittings? ... I would still want brass. Although the pex is also plastic.

Proper made plastic may be better the better choice. Depends on the manufacturer.

 

 

 

That's an interesting thought because from what I've seen the lines don't break where the freeze happens but downstream because the frozen part expands the water and then causes pressure to build up because the rest of the water can't compress.

[Los_Control]

23 hours ago, Young Ed said:

That's an interesting thought because from what I've seen the lines don't break where the freeze happens but downstream because the frozen part expands the water and then causes pressure to build up because the rest of the water can't compress.

Lets be honest Ed, I probably should have shut up about pex a long time ago 

 

In Albuquerque we replaced plumbing with pex. This is a really mild climate.

 

My employer had a cabin in Northern New Mexico. They would go up there on Holidays like Christmas.

They used a small oil fill radiator heater while away to kinda keep the chill away.

Every year they went there to celebrate Christmas, the pex water lines were always frozen.

They then would turn on the heat and build a fire, The plumbing would thaw out and they had running water again.

 

Now if they had copper or pvc lines, they would have to do plumbing repairs every time they wanted to use the Northern cabin in the mountains.

 

If a guy lived in Minnesota, I have no idea if it would work for you ... If a guy lived in Canada and ran a boiler .... I doubt it would work for you but I may be wrong.

I was simply poking fun at  @keithb7

Somehow it has turned into a crap show talking about pex ... I never intended that.

[Young Ed]

12 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

Lets be honest Ed, I probably should have shut up about pex a long time ago 

 

In Albuquerque we replaced plumbing with pex. This is a really mild climate.

 

My employer had a cabin in Northern New Mexico. They would go up there on Holidays like Christmas.

They used a small oil fill radiator heater while away to kinda keep the chill away.

Every year they went there to celebrate Christmas, the pex water lines were always frozen.

They then would turn on the heat and build a fire, The plumbing would thaw out and they had running water again.

 

Now if they had copper or pvc lines, they would have to do plumbing repairs every time they wanted to use the Northern cabin in the mountains.

 

If a guy lived in Minnesota, I have no idea if it would work for you ... If a guy lived in Canada and ran a boiler .... I doubt it would work for you but I may be wrong.

I was simply poking fun at  @keithb7

Somehow it has turned into a crap show talking about pex ... I never intended that.

Ha welcome to the forum! My folks have a cabin in WI that we plumbed with pex. However it gets drained in the fall so I can't say we've tested it. My old house had bad insulation and when it got really cold the cold supply to the kitchen sink would freeze. No water would come out of the faucet but it never broke. I would heat it up and then leave the cupboard open until it was a little warmer out. So maybe there froze and then really frozen?