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Build Thread - Elise - Chrysler 48 Windsor


wagoneer
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I have had that ball come out of a EV1 and a couple other Ball and Ball carbs.

Another note ....the original two balls...the small and larger accelerator pump check balls were made of stainless and ...Monel?

I think the inlet ball was Monel....

The outlet was stainless.

Today all you will get is stainless.

It's critical these balls seat and seal properly for full accelerator pump operation.

 

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@Dodgeb4ya @harmony


My carb definitely did not have the 1/8” ball in that small idle port but neither have I seen it in any of the rebuild instructions even from carter. If it was loose then it should have basic instructions to replace it.

 

the large ball is the pump discharge check ball, and the small ball is the pump intake check ball.

 

We should all get good enough to rebuild the carb using needle nose pliers 🙂

 

 

according to some sites on google, you can still get monel ball bearings from many manufacturers, and they were designed to be gas resistant because they are nickel alloy .


there are some nice NOS B&B kits out there too all lacking the small check ball. 
 

maybe it’s a hidden surprise?

 

alos now that I’ve rebuilt, it seems everybody on the internet is reselling the same kit and some are certainly better than others . 
 

 

9DB8E17D-4C2F-4298-BDBD-FDFB198078CD.png.a1c6263be3969724b9a0dd364ae5251a.png
 

26110BBF-CDF1-45FD-86D1-7B71D0E1C302.png.f8d175271ffd130f485e87e2bc22239b.png5BB84C99-5D8B-4EA4-8BDF-841230314237.jpeg.5d95672765a1ee3b1bdbfdb477dedb00.jpeg

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12 hours ago, harmony said:

C shaped retaining clip at the bottom of the accelerator pump well

 

When I rebuilt my BB the instructions I had made it very clear to NOT fool with this ball unless there was an absolute need to as removing the C clip was difficult.  The instructions said to use solvent and compressed air to blow it out.   Now I imagine that those instructions were written with the thought that the vehicle was in normal use and not that it had been setting for along time and the gasoline had all evaporated and left crud plugging stuff up.  If that is your carb, then maybe that needs to be removed.

 

Since I had no issue there I didn't fool with it so I have no idea how hard it might actually be if you removed it.

Edited by Sniper
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  • wagoneer changed the title to Build Thread - Elise - Chrysler 48 Windsor
2 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

When I rebuilt my BB the instructions I had made it very clear to NOT fool with this ball unless there was an absolute need to as removing the C clip was difficult.  The instructions said to use solvent and compressed air to blow it out.   Now I imagine that those instructions were written with the thought that the vehicle was in normal use and not that it had been setting for along time and the gasoline had all evaporated and left crud plugging stuff up.  If that is your carb, then maybe that needs to be removed.

 

Since I had no issue there I didn't fool with it so I have no idea how hard it might actually be if you removed it.

Yep, it usually takes a couple tries, to get that C clip back in.  I use a couple super small slot screwdrivers with long handles. Orientation is important too because there are two spots at the bottom of that accelerator chamber that are cut away so to say.  So you rotate the clip until the one end of the clip is about a 1/16" past the one cut out and slip it under it.  Then sort of hold it in place with the one screwdriver while pressing down on the other side close to the other cut out, and it will snap into place.  Holding your tongue just so, really helps.  You could do it with one screwdriver, but you should clear the room of small children.  No need to add what comes out of your mouth to their vocabulary.

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6 hours ago, Greg51T&CWagon said:

If you're holding your tongue how do you hold the two screwdrivers? Seriously, I'm about to embark on a BB rebuild and this stuff really helps. Thanks.

 

lol!  I'm certainly no expert on carbs, but I have taken my EV1 carbs apart and put in rebuilt kits and cleaned them periodically, so I'm pretty familiar with this particular model.  I did come across an EV 7 and there is a lot less parts to that one.  Have fun with it and try not to get too flustered.  For me I found that taking a huge amount of pictures was helpful.  The first time I pulled the EV1 apart I took a picture of every component separately just as it was being taken out.

 

If it is the EV1 that you're rebuilding, be very careful to pull straight out on that piece of what looks like black Bakelite or very hard plastic where the wire going to the transmission relay is connected at the back of the carb ( kickdown switch).  That piece has to come straight out.  Don't be tempted to twist it or it will probably brake little pieces of that Bakelite or plastic right off.  Good luck trying to find another one of those.

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3 hours ago, harmony said:

 

 

If it is the EV1 that you're rebuilding, be very careful to pull straight out on that piece of what looks like black Bakelite or very hard plastic where the wire going to the transmission relay is connected at the back of the carb ( kickdown switch).  That piece has to come straight out.  Don't be tempted to twist it or it will probably brake little pieces of that Bakelite or plastic right off.  Good luck trying to find another one of those.

Some info on the Bakelite KD switch and a carter service bulletin I remembered and found it on hesitation and the check ball info....

Carter KD System M5 M6.JPG

Carter EV1 48 NY carb parts and tests BN (11).JPG

Carter B&B hesitation factory Bulletin.JPG

Edited by Dodgeb4ya
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The video from mikes hardware really helps. https://youtu.be/Qg19Cz2dWAI

 

Troubleshooting tips in this thread https://p15-d24.com/topic/47856-carb-tune-up-and-misc/

 


Must read MTSC on carburetor- https://www.mymopar.com/downloads/mtsc/010.pdf

 

I’m a believer in using the original oem tools, and I bought several key carter original tools from the carburetor shop.
 

https://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Carter_tools.htm

 

 

The Carburetor shop  got the market for carter and stromberg OEM tools for reasonable prices. 

 

we need somebody like that for miller tools!

 

EA9D1861-22BF-4795-AA29-686A15093D9B.jpeg.fa4c46012a246d184edcfaece2f702bc.jpeg

 

Useful tools (that I have) include:

 

t-109-56 ball retaining clip tool (how you get the clip out) - maybe not essential but clever and factory so you don’t crush the ring or scrape the sides with a flat head 

 

ECB6A469-F86B-4119-9DFE-A35C4CB4A8ED.jpeg.133d55a7e9de61e4a0efded86998c8a8.jpeg

 

t-109-123 - rivet /retaining ring setting tool - a multi purpose multi part tool that you use to set the retaining ring , flat rivets and nice round rivets - this tool is really useful. Really long narrow tweezers might work too.

 

81B01E1A-F8D0-42F1-9CB8-E0D1DEF2049B.jpeg.509b8eb45ab69fa0e10e133069e737ff.jpeg

 

t-109-43c - rivet remover - very good to have to take out rivets cleanly

 

E332D25F-224E-4FA2-A9B7-D2F9CD2B1EB3.jpeg.bc35fe55108621fae83d264736360471.jpeg


t-109-50 float level gauge - get 5/64 exactly right


F2BD7593-2B15-4842-9482-743901C1F639.jpeg.0413f03ed9d8997eb2c1f1a019601768.jpeg

 


t-109-117s - Accelerator pump adjustment tool - an okay  video on how to use it - for BB1 it’s supposed to be 3/8” travel and you adjust the arm of the accelerator pump up or down. 3/8 “ amounts to about 45 marks (Not sure the units it’s measured in b/c that doesn’t look metric)  on the accelerator pump.

 

8A1DE159-9FCA-49E3-BFEE-953386A614C2.jpeg.f265f2110ddf94b5262377344eb5dc71.jpeg

 

 

 

 

On 12/30/2021 at 1:57 PM, Greg51T&CWagon said:

If you're holding your tongue how do you hold the two screwdrivers? Seriously, I'm about to embark on a BB rebuild and this stuff really helps. Thas.

 

 

 

t-109-95 - main vent tube remove and set tool - generally probably don’t mess with the main vent tube as factory recommends replace with new if you take it out, but if you do - then you definitely need this tool.

 

3E0F12AC-ECB6-4D1F-ACF8-E9CBF41F8DD7.jpeg.7dccb6e124a03aa4eb4e3cf7f3d09413.jpeg
 

t-109-105c - it’s an adjustment tool but I haven’t figured out how to or where to use it yet…

 

4F39AA19-9660-4635-8C2C-73490DC5CBC1.jpeg.49c27c5089692cede54932c46f04a68d.jpeg

Edited by wagoneer
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8 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Some info on the Bakelite KD switch and a carter service bulletin I remembered and found it on hesitation and the check ball info....

Carter KD System M5 M6.JPG

Carter EV1 48 NY carb parts and tests BN (11).JPG

Carter B&B hesitation factory Bulletin.JPG


 

 

I’m curious on why the insistence of the brass rod over the steel rod? Is it so much gentler on the metal? I guess I should find a brass rod somewhere?

 

how are the stainless steel balls soft ? Looked but can’t find monel balls except from manufacturers.

 

maybe in an NOS rebuild kit?

Edited by wagoneer
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1 hour ago, wagoneer said:

t-109-95 - idle tube remove and set tool - generally probably don’t mess with the idle tube as factory recommends replace with new if you take it out, but if you do - definitely need this tool.

 

I've used this tool to remove the main idle tube on a number of BB carbs. Some of those tubes needed extra cleaning even after the fuel bowl was run through an ultrasonic cleaner a couple of times with the tube installed and the plug removed. It takes only a few turns to get the threads on the tool to engage the threads on the tube to pull it out. Be very careful as the threads on the tube are very delicate. Use the "handle" on the tool to gently push the tube back in until it seats.

 

Carbs ran well after removing/installing the tube using this tool. I've reused the tubes as replacements don't appear to be available.

 

Pete

 

Edited by Pete
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Tool # 109-195 is used to remove the main vent tube from the underside of the fuel bowl.

 The "Idle Orifice" tube is removed from the top of the fuel bowl with a slotted screw driver...it also retains the step up piston assembly.

 As for the main vent tube removal...yes you have to be careful removing and installing it with the tool. I re-use them. never have an issue doing that... Chances of finding new ones...low.

Pics of the tool and tube removal...plus idle orifice tube

Emulsion tube remover Carter Tool (2).JPG

Emulsion tube remover Carter Tool (3).JPG

Carburetor B&B Tear Down FD  (10).JPG

20211231_111859_compress58.jpg

Edited by Dodgeb4ya
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Posted (edited)

Look what I just found on eBay -- A 1943 Carter repair  parts package loaded with all the goodies - original and looks unopened.

 

New everything - check balls, main vent tube, rivets...

 

image.png.b8a32f46c36df01ad8c30cd03d59b962.png

 

 

 

In 2021 dollars, that $5 is $85

I guess I'm getting it for a steal for $40....

 

image.png.4e7f2dc6342469e4d721320c6bd97d46.png

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143233343475

 

 

 

Edited by wagoneer
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Full meal Carter kits are great!

Much better than the quick(1/2) kits

Edited by Dodgeb4ya
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Posted (edited)

The Carter carburetor kit came! You have to be amazed at how such a kit has survived for almost 80 years without being opened .

 

This particular kit was made in at least may of 1944 (reprint dates on sheets)


It contains so many goodies such as the original tuneup sheets for c28/c34 carbs , as well as the original carburetor rebuild sheet that’s available in the downloads section here.

 

I think the kit was used for the needle seat since only the male-to-male seat remains and only one shows in the inventory.

 

The packets are unopened!

 

Of note for this topic, the pump spring is much shorter than the length of the accelerator pump itself meaning there is a bit of travel there.

 

I’ll put up high resolution clean scans of what I have that is not duplicate.

 

I feel like not opening the packets  though I’m tempted!

 

It’s a bit of history!

 

You have to wonder what motivated people to keep all this NOS stuff around for so many years. No business plan can account for COGS recouped 80 years later Or even 20 years later. 
 

That means it changed hands over and over . A lot of times of it wa sour stuff it would degrade in some corner and be thrown away !

 

It’s a miracle really that sooo much NOS stuff from our era of favorite vehicles remains .

 

42D79974-3146-4C72-AF97-43992BEC6EB0.jpeg.a84b221e90e1ac9de4adb3c87b98e0c1.jpeg
 

57EA031D-E04C-4F63-9A29-B92F1FE58FDA.jpeg.d8c41dd92e6b8dddfefdfae8c1ee4375.jpeg2DCC5E99-3618-4549-93D2-5E4144E6DD83.jpeg.593b4c3dcb3c44a9cd6498374b7edfc1.jpegA9EE48FB-0484-4B28-802C-79CF97A7CC2F.jpeg.0360bed0da308f3ad3d121e148c7c07b.jpegB97AE364-2227-4ADD-81B2-AA73A5020D9A.jpeg.da23315c65d0750fca441e5f10311be1.jpegL78B588C4-85DC-48BB-9231-9F18DB2C5AB5.jpeg.0d9e2e7811a990976416a0717ea06e56.jpeg67A7DC04-F897-446E-9BF2-67DBDB07CC10.jpeg.6c36781ce7d1a1077e56e93a338e3269.jpeg49CE1E80-EB3D-467F-A9B4-8BFF52FA9610.jpeg.6f6c26026c45e61c0482ba187995da28.jpegF990531D-4D1C-470C-AEB1-2F50D6EAEE06.jpeg.03ab24967f0c6804d4f0f74b2ae54eb2.jpeg234646A8-6122-4BE2-A96B-CF538D2CB896.jpeg.8c1cafb19cabb944a3225159e1e6d43f.jpegC2D9EE1D-634B-49E4-A574-40472714E97E.jpeg.b6d45f6ccec942ccac9fa4321001a59c.jpeg0F601807-F439-4116-9B41-045B85DBB05D.jpeg.ab5928300cdd0555a88d6e53798d15c7.jpegEF4A2B59-376D-4FCA-8AB1-D65E61D83AF7.jpeg.a346d7c986a2caa3241b5da268555a5d.jpegA0563720-74E0-4841-9758-D33A1A97E9AE.jpeg.969fcea3a1e5425ddc33cbace066de32.jpeg253A2D3A-B97A-4274-99AE-BAFD185427FC.jpeg.21fd2d658eee2b4cdd472810422594ca.jpeg75AE982C-4EA2-4497-97AE-CD6E151166CF.jpeg.ea70cebb08969146a388b89020eb71d0.jpeg

79B09C99-7BEF-4F64-A381-6F5087397FD4.jpeg

Edited by wagoneer
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Wow, I have never seen a carb kit that was so well put together with all the documentation you'd need, but then again I usually just buy aftermarket one.  Wish Cart was still making these.  Nice score

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1 hour ago, wagoneer said:

The Carter carburetor kit came! You have to be amazed at how such a kit has survived for almost 80 years without being opened .

 

This particular kit was made in at least may of 1944 (reprint dates on sheets)


It contains so many goodies such as the original tuneup sheets for c28/c34 carbs , as well as the original carburetor rebuild sheet that’s available in the downloads section here.

 

I think the kit was used for the needle seat since only the male-to-male seat remains and only one shows in the inventory.

 

The packets are unopened!

 

Of note for this topic, the pump spring is much shorter than the length of the accelerator pump itself meaning there is a bit of travel there.

 

I’ll put up high resolution clean scans of what I have that is not duplicate.

 

I feel like not opening the packets  though I’m tempted!

 

It’s a bit of history!

 

You have to wonder what motivated people to keep all this NOS stuff around for so many years. No business plan can account for COGS recouped 80 years later Or even 20 years later. 
 

That means it changed hands over and over . A lot of times of it wa sour stuff it would degrade in some corner and be thrown away !

 

It’s a miracle really that sooo much NOS stuff from our era of favorite vehicles remains .

L

 

It would be fabulous if you could get that scanned on a flat-bed scanner. 

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On 12/29/2021 at 9:59 AM, wagoneer said:

...  I think it is the green spring compared to the “standard” spring.

 

  I’m debating whether to go ahead with the standard size to lower the pressure a bit considering my nominal oil pressure even after the rebuild was about 45 or 50 in drive, and starts out at 60+ at idle.

 

thoughts? 
 

also to better inform, I’m going to change the topic name to include the problem at hand in this build thread .

 

 

40BD8A6E-7FD7-44FB-B258-E93C8534A602.jpeg.295a355bc311acf180f12ceeee4cdd8f.jpegE7A39142-68D3-4583-9C23-6DCB28F26DFD.jpeg.495b16a81532eacb5969202af19a2874.jpeg

 

 

This full flow thread had me looking through the last parts manual - April 1949 edition of the C38/C39/C40 book at the oil pump, and I discovered something very interesting that gives nuance to my own question above regarding which spring to use:

 

   Short Answer:  For C38 - only has blue, red, or green spring but NOT the plain spring --   So I should use the Green Spring... sigh, I have to open it up again and put the old green spring in. 

 

IMG_0209.png.d0a2081f5cb2fd5580475ef9c044f1ec.png

 

  Also my oil pressure was always showing somewhere around 55 to 65. I thought that was high previously, but maybe that's normal for the C38 now. Problem . was it was ALWAYS 55 to 65 even below 30. I think with lower viscosity oil (5w-20) and the regular unpainted spring the pressure will be too low. The unpainted one is used in the L8.  I'm going to put the green spring back in. This difference is probably related to the fluid drive oil pressure sensitivity. 

 

 

 

IMG_0205.png.3787644c5fd52176b3260b74db798d3d.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by wagoneer
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I tried googing that green spring part number, no luck.  If you could measure the wire diameter, coil ID, coil OD, free length and number of coils I will see what I can find as a working replacement,  Thanks

Edited by Sniper
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On 12/29/2021 at 8:35 PM, harmony said:

Here is the EV1 carb with all kinds of labelled identifications.  This picture was posted by c49er a couple years ago.  You'll find the location of the balls easily since the sizes are mentioned.  I might be wrong but I don't think that the large ball will even fit under the C shaped retaining clip at the bottom of the accelerator pump well.  So since you only got 2 from Mike's, perhaps you put the small one under that C retaining clip instead of in that recess on the body close to the venturi opening. 

EV1 carb layout.jpg

 

 

@Dodgeb4ya @harmony I have found the missing checkball. It's in the dashpot plunger. This is from the carburetor parts kit documentation on the C34: The plunger has a check ball at the bottom of it according to this doc.

 

IMG_6099.jpg.2ebd69a0685ddb3cd2e4789077e1f8a4.jpg

 

 

Edited by wagoneer
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17 hours ago, Sniper said:

I tried googing that green spring part number, no luck.  If you could measure the wire diameter, coil ID, coil OD, free length and number of coils I will see what I can find as a working replacement,  Thanks

I called vintage power wagon, and they have them in stock for a reasonable price

 

image.png.814bbf054380b7d32a2bf59c0c0f1a10.png

 

They claim the only difference is in valve diameter, and the springs are the same length regardless of 23" or 25" block.

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  • 5 months later...

After a long hiatus, i finally been able to return to Elise to finish up work I started back in January. I've been upgrading the electrical system, and doing long awaited maintenance to root out wiring gremlins in the Fluid Drive.

 On the agenda:

    1. Rebuild Carburetor (Done)

    2. Rewire starting circuit (done)

    3. Rewire Fluid Drive Circuit (done)

    4. repaint engine (done)

    5. install alternator (done)

    6. install 6v fan (tbd)

 

   Now it's all about the putting it back together .....

 

   oil change, trans oil change, adjusting the timing (I may need to move the pump a notch or two), wire up a few indicator lights.  You'd think it would go faster and then you run into these silly threading issues, or even the oil canister - it's a bit of a jigsaw with the pipes - you need to put the inner one first in the block so you can get it tight, attach the outer one to the canister, and then attach it all together on the engine so pieces work... took a while to work that out. sigh. but I'm oving it.

 

IMG_5614.jpeg.b8cde3750e100e2f608a53445499f1a7.jpeg

 

 

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