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'33 Plymouth Flywheel Removal


Crazyred

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I am replacing the clutch on my '33 plymouth pd sedan.  While I have it all apart I am going to remove the flywheel and have it resurfaced.  When I remove the 4 nuts and try to lower the flywheel off the bolts it hits the bell housing.  I tapped two of the bolts back gently until they touched the rear seal.  The bolt then is close to the back of the flywheel but not fully able to release.  Before I tapped all 4 bolts back, I stopped since this is the first time I have removed a flywheel.  Is there something else I need to do in order to drop the flywheel?  While typing this, a thought occurred to me.  The rear seal is leaking and there is a build up of gunk inside the housing, maybe this is a problem as well?

 

Any thoughts on what may be going on here or have I over looked anything to remove?

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1 hour ago, Sniper said:

You are going to have to remove the bell housing most likely.

Do yourself a huge favor and replace the rear main seal while you are at it. If the bellhousing is full of thick oil,chances are you are going to need a new pressure plate.

And you are right to want to remove all the crud from the flywheel while you have the trans out.

 

A good rule of thumb is to fix/repair/replace/clean anything in sight while you have it this far down. Start out fresh and new when it is all buttoned back together.BTW,this might also be a good time to replace the throw-out bearing. Clean it up as spiffy as you can,and then give it a good look,incuding spinning it in your hand and checking to see if there are any rough spots or undue noise. Throw out bearing rarely give anyone any trouble,but you already know how much work it is to pull the trans and bellhousing,so now is the time to check it out.

 

 

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@Sniper on the 33, the engine is attached to the bell housing and the bell housing is mounted with the floating power mounts to the frame crossmember.  What's the best approach to support the rear of the engine in the car without crushing the oil pan, etc while the bell housing is loose?

 

@knuckleharley your suggestion is my plan, to fix / replace all needed parts.  The rear seal is leaking and is definitely getting replaced as well as the clutch.  The pressure plate I was hoping to keep but after removing the surface looks bad.  As this is my first ever clutch removal, I am not 100% if this looks normal in the picture below.

IMG_0578.jpg.853b3cdaa091bff56be161cc220be9d4.jpg

 

 

Before I try unbolting the bell housing, I will remove the build up inside the housing to see if that allows the needed clearance.

Edited by Crazyred
picture change
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Hmmm. It has been a long while but I was able to remove (and re-install) the flywheel with the engine and bell housing together and in my '33 PD.

 

I wonder if the mounting bolts have been replaced with longer ones. Or if mine were installed with the nuts on the block side. In either case, I don’t recall any particular issue with getting the flywheel out once it was unbolted. I do remember that getting the upper half of the rear seal replaced was a real PITA: laying on my back, only able to move the open end wrench a trifle at a time and no real way to force the rope seal down tight against the crankshaft. I vaguely recall that I removed the rear main bearing cap to replace the lower half of the seal which means I must have removed the oil pan.

 

If it does come to splitting the bell housing off the engine, there are a couple of alignment dowels that are pretty tight (they need to be to align things properly). Long after my adventure with replacing the rear seal while laying on my back in the apartment parking lot, I did a body off attempt at restoration. At that time I pulled the engine and, again if I recall correctly, getting the bell housing off the engine required a bit of patience and care to due to the alignment pins/dowels. I am not sure I would want to try that with the engine in the car.

 

Sorry for the rambling. But I think if part of the goal is to replace the rear main seal, you are likely to need to pull the rear main bearing cap to do the bottom half properly. To pull the rear bearing cap you will need to drop the oil pan. If the oil pan is off then you have a good strong edge around the bottom of the engine to build up some sort of cribbing to hold the engine if you find you really need to pull the bell housing.

 

 

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That pressure plate sure looks bad. 

 

I have a gantry crane and a lifting eye bolt I can screw into one of the head bolt holes (drain coolant first) to hold the back of the engine up.  Your mount setup is pretty much the same as my 51's.

 

An engine hoist and a lift chain can work too.  See link, you may have to drill put the holes too accomodate the head bolts though

 

https://www.amazon.com/Motor-Engine-Chain-Hoist-Lifting/dp/B004XMZXQW

 

On my cars with fenders and an alligator style hood a 2x4 across the fender lips *where the hood meets them) and a ratchet strap works too

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The bolts 'should' go into the flywheel and then through the flange with nuts on the back side. 

Apparently yours have been changed to something else. Does your flywheel have a shoulder machined into the recess that hits the edge of the bolt hole?

If so, this shoulder is there to engage the oem clipped head bolt to keep it from turning when the nuts are tightened.

If the shoulder is there and you have a nut sitting partly on the shoulder you have a real safety concern.

It might be possible to cut your bolts off so that the wheel can drop and then replace them with oem parts...assuming that the holes haven't been messed with which would then require another 'fix'.

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@wayfarer after reading this I went and checked in my service manuals and the plymouths and the motors manuals, all show that the bolts should be installed on the end of the crank with the nuts attaching the flywheel to them.  The configuration that you mentioned would definitely made it easier.

 

IMG_0636.jpg.ac8b8836c80d96f7e74b24c79f888fd0.jpg

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Just to back up some, in order to remove the flywheel I reinstalled one of the clutch housing bolts to assist in holding the flywheel from moving.  Otherwise when trying to loosen the nuts, the flywheel assembly would turn.  Then placed an open ended wrench on to the clutch housing bolt and braced it against the bell housing.  This might seem basic to some but thought it might help someone in the future. 

 

Side note, dirt dabber bees are very adventurous and make nests in strange areas, as seen inside the bell housing here. ?

 

IMG_0602.jpg.8e48086aaace9176896743e7f67cc52d.jpg

Edited by Crazyred
typo
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Thinking that the gunk build up might be the issue, I began cleaning the housing in the areas that the flywheel was hitting.  It was thick in some areas but not enough to make a difference.  So as mentioned by @TodFitch the bolts must be slightly too long even though I tapped the bolts against the block.

 

IMG_0623.jpg.02ae1a474c86ccd5e08eb9a938a4870c.jpg

 

Unfortunately, I had to separate the bell housing as @Sniper mentioned.  Knowing I only needed an 1/8" or so, my hopes were to just split the housing and not a complete removal.  In order to do this, the lower transmission support with the rubber mount needs to be removed, starter removed, upper engine / housing mounts need to be removed and removed the oil pan.  The oil pan was removed since I will support the engine with jack stands at the rear of the block. 

 

With help from my brother, we were able to jack up the car and place jack stands on the frame and the rear of the block to support everything.  Once support was in place, we removed the lower support and then the upper mounts.  Then we loosened all 6  bell housing bolts (2 on top and 2 on each side).  As luck would have it, the leaking rear seal kept the housing and engine mating area lubed and the two separated fairly easy with the help of a screw driver as a wedge.  The housing was pushed against the upper frame cross member and gave roughly an 1/8" gap from the block.

 

IMG_0630.jpg.156410f5c7e48d0498ee111c6324d046.jpg

 

This was enough clearance that the flywheel was able to be free of the bolts.  I had to angle the flywheel in different directions in order to remove it completely.  Note of caution, I had read that the flywheel was heavy but I had no idea just how heavy it actually is.  I am glad my brother was there to help lower it down as I was not expecting that weight.

 

IMG_0627.jpg.c5c6cfc2627f1ebab981223e4a9e56dc.jpg

 

Was able to take the flywheel and have it resurfaced and the starter gear ring flipped since it had wear along the edge.  Scroggins Machine in Houston did a great job and had it completed in just a few hours at a reasonable price.  Below are the before and after pictures of it.  Now once I order parts and repair the rear seal, I'll get to put it back together soon.

 

IMG_0635.jpg.e0e836ffae3d28d0d59f3ed27dcb0999.jpg

 

IMG_0637.jpg.61875470baf5e7ebd310891459e7f1cb.jpg

 

I appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions and it was not as difficult as I had originally imagined that it would be.

 

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I learn something every day.........only 4 bolts on the crank/flywheel flange.........also a tip............when you remove the rear main check if there are any small seals either side of the main bearing journal that sit in a recess in either the main cap or block...........I'm unsure if these seals exist in a 1934 engine but certainly do in the late 30's onwards and there are at least 2 different shaped seals also..........as for what type of rear main seal you "should" have my understanding is that it should be a rope seal BUT could well be a neoprene type seal also..........the only way to be certain is to remove the rear main cap and see whats actually there...........lol.......

...............BTW......the flywheel looks nice, the clutch will thank you for it...........lol............don't forget to use a new throwout bearing and lubricate the pilot bush or if possible instal a new one and still lubricate that one anyway in the end of the crank and a small amount of grease on the clutch throwout arm pivot point ..........andyd  

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