Are wheel bearings available for the front hubs? 1947 DeSoto Custom Sedan (Elvis)

[Racer-X-]

Simple question.   I'm evaluating brake kits and/or considering designing and making my own. 

 

I'm wondering if I can avoid stacking up a mashup of weird bearings and spacers to use a hub with an integrated rotor, or if it's better to use a rotor for a 4WD/AWD application that goes over the stock hub for the drums. A big consideration is whether replacement bearings are available for the stock hub.  So far, I'm not finding any, but I haven't really started scouring all my sources yet.

[Plymouthy Adams]

where have you looked that did not have them so folks here will not offer up providers that are useless to you....

[Sniper]

All Plymouth, Dodge and Desoto use the same front wheel bearings

 

Bearing inner Chrysler pn 698395

Bearing interchange  http://www.kakapart.com/oem/partscrossinterchange/chrysler-698395.html

 

Bearing outer Chrysler pn 698389

Bearing interchange http://www.kakapart.com/oem/partscrossinterchange/chrysler-698389.html

 

Race inner 698394

Bearing interchange http://www.kakapart.com/oem/partscrossinterchange/chrysler-698394.html

 

Race outer 698388

Bearing Interchange http://www.kakapart.com/oem/partscrossinterchange/chrysler-698388.html

 

Bearing interchange numbers might make it easier to find for you

Edited November 23, 2021 by Sniper

[kencombs]

Use the numbers from the bearings themselves to search.  There seem to be a lot of errors in application listings on older stuff.  And parts get swapped over the years.  So the actual bearing stamping is the best bet.  Failing that one can always look by dimension.   All major bearing makers have an online catalog and most include an interchange section.

I've never failed to find bearings using those methods and tools.   Even weird Japanese tractor steering stuff.

[James_Douglas]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

All Plymouth, Dodge and Desoto use the same front wheel bearings

 

Bearing inner Chrysler pn 698395

Bearing interchange  http://www.kakapart.com/oem/partscrossinterchange/chrysler-698395.html

 

Bearing outer Chrysler pn 698389

Bearing interchange http://www.kakapart.com/oem/partscrossinterchange/chrysler-698389.html

 

Race inner 698394

Bearing interchange http://www.kakapart.com/oem/partscrossinterchange/chrysler-698394.html

 

Race outer 698388

Bearing Interchange http://www.kakapart.com/oem/partscrossinterchange/chrysler-698388.html

 

Bearing interchange numbers might make it easier to find for you

Sniper...be advised that the Large Wheelbase cars used different bearings. I know that applies to Desoto and Chrysler and I suspect the dodge 7 passenger may well to use the larger bearings.

 

James

[Sniper]

Not in 47, I checked for that, twice.

[Andydodge]

But as Ken says use the number stamped onto the bearing.........obviously if you do not have a bearing then thats a problem but I've never bothered with a car brands part number when I'm looking for a new bearing, I just use the number on the bearing......and when I decided on using discs on my Dodge years ago the main consideration was that the ID of the new bearings in the 11" vented discs matched the OD of the 1941-54 style stub axle which they did, then it was just a matter of getting a spacer machined for the new grease seal to run on..........and that was again relatively straightforward as I had the stub from the OEM disc application so measured the OD on that and the relevant spacing and the OD on the 1941-54 stub axle which when reduced by a couple of thou gave me an ID that would allow the new seal piece to be a shrink fit...........and then just had to make the caliper brackets.......as I had the OEM stub with its cast on caliper brackets then it was just a matter of transposing their dimensions and making that from steel plate..............and still working 47 years later........andyd     

Edited November 23, 2021 by Andydodge
more info

[Racer-X-]

Thanks everyone here.  It looks like Bubba repacked the bearings (might've replaced them, I don't know) when he put his "disc brake conversion" on this one.

 

I had to take the hubs to the machine shop for some work.  The right side hub, all the holes for the wheel studs were worn out and were too big to hold new studs.  The 7/16" studs generally have an OD at the knurl of 0.480", and the holes on the right side hub were all in the range of  0.485" to .497".   New studs just rattle around in the hole. Bubba's solution to retain the old ones was to use his favorite torch (or maybe wire feed welder) and try to tack weld the heads of the studs to the hub. The welds were easy to break off, and two of the studs fell loose when I took the wheel off. The rest just broke away when I wiggled the studs.   I'm hoping the heat from welding didn't do too much damage to the hub itself.  The heat was pretty localized from the looks of the hub.

 

I'm going to clean the bearings and inspect.  They may be fine. 

 

The one part I'll need will be new seals for the back side of the hub. Those look a little strange to me.  Bubba found them, so I guess I should be able to.

 

On the left side, the studs were "holding", but most were easy to push out with some pressure from my thumb. Only 1 took a very light tap from the hammer to knock it loose.  Those holes were between 0.476" and 0.479", which isn't enough to really retain the 0.480" knurled studs.

 

I didn't think there was enough metal on the hub to go all the way to the knurled end of a press in 1/2-20 stud.  My machinist agreed with that assessment.  Right now, he's making some wheel spacers and reaming the holes in the hubs just big enough to use 1/2-20 grade 8 bolts to retain the spacer to the hub, with nuts behind the hub flange to hold it together, and with new 1/2-20 lug studs pressed into the spacer from the back side. The bolts and studs will be countersunk, so the faces of the spacer will be flat against the hub flange and the wheel flange.  The spacers will be 3/4" thick steel plate, and made hub-centric on the centers of the hubs, and the outer edge will have hub-centric lips for the wheels we're using.

 

I also think I've found the rotors I'll use for my own disc brake setup.  2008-2012 Jeep Liberty rotors are a perfect fit on these hubs. The only down side is that they are 302mm in diameter.  I'm hoping I can get that inside a 15" relatively  modern wheel (designed to use in disc brake applications) with a stock-ish caliper. I generally consider 300mm to be the biggest I try to put in a 15" wheel. I wish I could find a 11" (280mm) or so rotor with a 72.1" hub bore for a FWD or 4WD/AWD application and a decent height/offset for the hat.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Racer-X-

[Sniper]

Metric makes my head hurt.

 

The rotors I am using are 10.87" in diameter, your Liberty ones are 11.88".  Running the GM metric calipers we talked about in another thread with my rotors leaves me about a 1/4" of clearance from the caliper to the stock 1951 15" rims.  The rotor donor I am using can usually be upgraded to larger 11.75" rotors if running modern disc brake 15" rims and that is what I am running on my 65 Cuda, with a different caliper though.  

 

I can drop my disc setup into a Moper cop car rim, modern disc brake style 15", and see what clearances are there.  Here's a pic of the disc setup I am running in the stock rim

 

 

 

And a shot of the caliper to rim clearance, about 1/4".

 

[Racer-X-]

Thanks @Sniper.   

 

I just did a little more research, and 1999-2006 Jeep Wranglers had 280mm (11.02 inch) rotors with the same 72mm center bore and a similar height/offset.  So maybe I'll use those if I can't make the Liberty ones work.

 

I like that GM caliper, although I have a couple of other possibilities if that one won't fit.

 

PS, do you have a part number or cross reference link for the wheel seals?

Edited November 24, 2021 by Racer-X-

[Sniper]

Assuming stock hubs, lol.

 

1947 Desoto (all) inner front wheel seal is mopar 668479

 

Cross references

 

http://www.kakapart.com/oem/partscrossinterchange/chrysler-668479.html

 

 

[Racer-X-]

57 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Assuming stock hubs, lol.

Yeah, big assumption there. The hubs are currently at the machine shop, so I can't measure them.   According to RockAuto.com,  Timken 6241S is for the non-8 passenger DeSoto S-11.  Ours is a Custom Sedan, no jump seats, so that seems right.  The details I have for that seal are that it goes in a 2.437" bore, and is for a 1.375" shaft.  The shaft size seems correct.  I just checked the axle stub for that.

 

The numbers you gave and the cross references all show a bore size of 2.726".   I won't order until I get a measurement on the bore. 

 

I did get a cross reference on that KakaPart site for the Timken 6241S, and cross references to other seals I can get, like SKF 13797 and National 6241S.  A Chrysler number for that one is 859164 (or T3610 or T1209 or ...)

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Racer-X-
more Chrysler/Mopar numbers added

[Sniper]

Problem is that my parts book only shows the part number valid at the time of printing, it shows no superceded by numbers.  At some point I am sure that seal got redesigned for a modern neoprene lip seal rather than the leather seal it had originally, which would necessitate a new part number in the MoPar world.  In the aftermarket world not so much, an improved design may, or may not, get you a new part number.  So verify the dimensions and have at it, that's what I do.

[kencombs]

7Regarding the studs:  It should have 1/2"studs if original.  All the 5 on 4.5" mopars that I've seen were.   The knurl size that I used is .540.  I converted my 56 PU to studs from bolts using 1/2x20 studs from a trailer supplier.  Drilled the hubs to fit and pressed in.  Original hubs on a 56 1/2 ton.

[Racer-X-]

39 minutes ago, kencombs said:

7Regarding the studs:  It should have 1/2"studs if original.  All the 5 on 4.5" mopars that I've seen were.   The knurl size that I used is .540.  I converted my 56 PU to studs from bolts using 1/2x20 studs from a trailer supplier.  Drilled the hubs to fit and pressed in.  Original hubs on a 56 1/2 ton.

That's a little weird.  The hubs looked original. They were definitely under 0.480 at one point, with 0.480 knurls on the 7/16" studs that were in it.  The studs had definitely been replaced.

 

It was less than twice the width of the chamfer from the edge of the hub to the edge of the holes.  Reaming it out to 0.516" for clearance for the 1/2-20 threaded portion of the stud took it all the way to the edge of the flat part of the hub flange. The chamfer literally starts at the edge of the hole now.

 

The studs I got were 0.547" on the knurled part.  He's reaming to 0.531" for them and pressing them in the steel spacer.   That's the holes that face out to the wheel.  He's also countersinking the head, so it will be flat against the hub flange with those between the hub holes.  The holes for the bolts through the hub will be 0.516", with a countersink on the outside face so the bolt heads won't interfere with the wheel flange surface.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Racer-X-

[kencombs]

31 minutes ago, Racer-X- said:

That's a little weird.  The hubs looked original. They were definitely under 0.480 at one point, with 0.480 knurls on the 7/16" studs that were in it.  The studs had definitely been replaced.

 

It was less than twice the width of the chamfer from the edge of the hub to the edge of the holes.  Reaming it out to 0.516" for clearance for the 1/2-20 threaded portion of the stud took it all the way to the edge of the flat part of the hub flange. The chamfer literally starts at the edge of the hole now.

 

The studs I got were 0.547" on the knurled part.  He's reaming to 0.531" for them and pressing them in the steel spacer.   That's the holes that face out to the wheel.  He's also countersinking the head, so it will be flat against the hub flange with those between the hub holes.  The holes for the bolts through the hub will be 0.516", with a countersink on the outside face so the bolt heads won't interfere with the wheel flange surface.

What is the wheel bolt pattern on the hubs?  5 3/4 or?   Every 7/16" stud I've encountered have been GM 5 3/4".

[Racer-X-]

2 minutes ago, kencombs said:

What is the wheel bolt pattern on the hubs?  5 3/4 or?   Every 7/16" stud I've encountered have been GM 5 3/4".

These hubs are 5x4-1/2". At least the front ones are.  The rear is definitely the wrong axle.

[Sniper]

The early Mopar A bodies with the 5 on 4.0" pattern used 7/16-20 lugs.

[kencombs]

36 minutes ago, Sniper said:

The early Mopar A bodies with the 5 on 4.0" pattern used 7/16-20 lugs.

Yep, I'd forgotten that.   I had a few Valiants and Darts with that.  I wonder if the bearings would fit any of the 40s/50s though?  Of course, with a lathe and imagination anything fits!

[James_Douglas]

On 11/23/2021 at 10:47 AM, Sniper said:

Not in 47, I checked for that, twice.

Sniper, I happen to know that in fact I am correct. First off, I have had both sets of bearings in my hand and "regular" car bearings are in fact smaller. Second, my 1946 to 1948 Desoto Master parts book clearly backs what I know to me true from having them both in my hands.

 

Please see the attached pages of my parts book.  Also, let this be a warning to people about the parts books. Many of the later "roll up" books are VERY incomplete and have errors. I have confirmed this on many occasions.  Just look at my hunt for rear-ends my rear-end thread. Desoto does not show ANY 4.3 rear ends in ANY of its master parts books for 1946 to 1948. However, I have confirmed that some of the cars, in particular some early Limo's did have it. The Chrysler 1946 Master Parts Book shows it as an option but the 1946 to 1948 parts book does not. Nor does the 5 inch 1954 and back roll up book show it.

 

One should take the Master Parts Books with a grain of salt if it is any kind for multi year or roll up book. Even the single year MPB's sometimes have errors and omissions.

 

See Part Type Code 22-06-01 attached.

 

James

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by James_Douglas

[Racer-X-]

On 11/24/2021 at 12:19 PM, Sniper said:

Assuming stock hubs, lol.

 

1947 Desoto (all) inner front wheel seal is mopar 668479

 

Cross references

 

http://www.kakapart.com/oem/partscrossinterchange/chrysler-668479.html

 

 

Following up on this.  I did measure the shaft of the stub axle, and it matches the Mopart 668479/Timken 5836/SKF 17145 ID dimensions exactly.   The shaft is 1.734" exactly on Elvis. So the mystery of the wheel seals is solved. For the next two weeks, I'll just repack the bearings for now. 

 

Wheel spacers will be ready to pick up on Wednesday, so Elvis should be mostly road ready on Wednesday.  We'll use Bubbba's front brakes for Friday, and possibly for the 15th of December as well.

 

In other news, I picked up a pair of calipers at the Atlanta (South) Pull-A-Part lot yesterday, along with some other parts.  The calipers when they are over the edge of the 302mm Jeep Liberty Rotor do rub on the steel 15" Cragar "Chrome Smoothie" wheel if I lower them in without a wheel spacer.  With Bubba's 3/8" shim, they clear with about 1/8" to spare, and with 3/4" of shims (the wheel spacers the machine shop is making are 3/4" thick), there's about 1/2" of clearance between the outer/outer edge of the caliper and the wheel.  From the OD of the caliper to the ID of the barrel of the wheel is about a quarter inch with these rotors. This matches some posts on the Jeep Forums where guys were going -1 on the wheel size from the stock 16" wheels down to steel 15" wheels, and they worked with a small spacer. Woohoo!  We'll have good brakes.   Maybe I should post a new thread on that topic.

 

 

[Sniper]

Sometimes you have to play Sherlock Holmes to get things sorted.  Good luck.

[Racer-X-]

Just following up.  I repacked the bearings yesterday.  They were all  Bower bearings, made in USA.  The inner bearings were Bower 14125 and I don't remember the numbers on the outers.  It was a mad thrash to finish everything yesterday, and I didn't have time to take pix, plus the battery in my phone died.

 

The seals were leather. It looked like when Bubba did his "disc brake conversion," he repacked the outer bearing with pretty red grease.  The inner bearing also had some pretty red grease smeared on it, but was packed with a mixture of black grease that looked fairly recent and some brown waxy grease that looked ancient.

 

It took my slide hammer to get the inner seals loose.  The wheel seals were almost as resistant to removal as Mercedes Benz W126 wheel seals.

 

I used a six pack of brake cleaner getting all the old grease and gunk out of everything, then repacked with fresh Valvoline synthetic wheel bearing/chassis grease and put everything back together. I bolted on the new hub centric wheel spacers we had made over Bubba's hand drilled (off center) rotors, and the hubs went back on.  Then Bubba's brakes were reinstalled.  I had to remove the steering arm on the right side to get to the lower caliper slide pin. Grrrrrr, after I had those bolts installed, torqued down tight holding Bubba's poorly made caliper brackets in place with the correct hardware, I had to remove them and reinstall them. 

 

Long day yesterday.  I also put the new steering stuff on (custom tie rod adjusters for the rack and pinion "conversion," along with new outer tie rod ends).  I'll update that thread as well. There were some issues there that will still need to be addressed.

 

He's a kind of shaky above 45mph right now, but that's probably the rotors off center and out of balance, and the tires are worn and likely not entirely round.   Elvis will be going on the trailer to an event Saturday, and he won't be driven far (under 10 miles round trip), and likely not over 30-35mph at all. He's safer and a lot better put together now than he was for the last event he went to.