48 Chrysler axle shims and end play not making sense ???

[Sniper]

It should not have changed, but you should check it.  Preload is set by using shims, spec is 15-25 in/lbs. add shims if it's greater than 25 in/lbs, remove shims if it's below 15 in/lbs.  This is measured without the oil seal installed.  So it might be too late, lol.

 

The MINIMUM pinion nut torque is 180 ft/lbs, maximum is 320 ft/lbs. 

[Bryan]

1 hour ago, harmony said:

So if I just pulled the axles to change the seals, and the pinion yoke to replace the pinion seal, would it be safe to say that the preload hasn't changed from what it was before?

 

Probably yes it would be okay if it is a shim system to control preload. If you don't change shims it should not change. The way you normally measure it (without axles) and the nut tightened,  is you rotate the wrench round and round while watching the dial. It spikes initially then stabilizes at a certain number.  Should be fairly constant with no tight spots..  You are not tightening the nut with the dial torque wrench, (it should already have been tightened) you are turning the pinion around to test load on the bearings.  If you were changing the pinion, you'd be taking the pinion in and out and changing shims (adding or subtracting,) until the rotational torque was correct.

[Bryan]

59 minutes ago, Sniper said:

It should not have changed, but you should check it.  Preload is set by using shims, spec is 15-25 in/lbs. add shims if it's greater than 25 in/lbs, remove shims if it's below 15 in/lbs.  This is measured without the oil seal installed.  So it might be too late, lol.

 

The MINIMUM pinion nut torque is 180 ft/lbs, maximum is 320 ft/lbs. 

And be glad you don't have a crush sleeve! Dodge Dakota - Had to put a floor jack under the breaker bar to crush the sleeve.

[Sniper]

If it's the 9 1/4 axle the aftermarket came up with a solid sleeve/shim setup to eliminate the crush sleeve. 

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/yga-55048

[James_Douglas]

On the leather seals...

 

Soak them good in Neatsfoot Oil if you have some or in mineral oil if you do not. For a couple of days.  Then take a round steel bar or an socket extension bar and roll the oil seal until it gets good and soft and pliable. I do this then soak it again for a day then roll it again.

 

If It stays hard send it back for a refund as the seal was not stored properly and is junk. Some of the old leather seals stayed on the shelf and are just fine and some are not.

 

Then and only then install it. If you install it without that above procedure it will fail in a few months.

 

James

[harmony]

39 minutes ago, James_Douglas said:

On the leather seals...

 

Soak them good in Neatsfoot Oil if you have some or in mineral oil if you do not. For a couple of days.  Then take a round steel bar or an socket extension bar and roll the oil seal until it gets good and soft and pliable. I do this then soak it again for a day then roll it again.

 

If It stays hard send it back for a refund as the seal was not stored properly and is junk. Some of the old leather seals stayed on the shelf and are just fine and some are not.

 

Then and only then install it. If you install it without that above procedure it will fail in a few months.

 

James

Hummm, well the seal is already installed.  All I did was cost it with oil a couple times before installing it.  This seal had a steel back or shroud on the back side that covers almost all the leather part.  So I'm curious if I put a 3 jaw puller on it, if it might come back out without damage?  I coated the outer rim of the seal with Permatex Aviation form-a-seal sealant liquid yesterday.  At this point, I'd doubt that NAPA or Timken would accept a return. 

[harmony]

40 minutes ago, harmony said:

Hummm, well the seal is already installed.  All I did was cost it with oil a couple times before installing it.  This seal had a steel back or shroud on the back side that covers almost all the leather part.  So I'm curious if I put a 3 jaw puller on it, if it might come back out without damage?  I coated the outer rim of the seal with Permatex Aviation form-a-seal sealant liquid yesterday.  At this point, I'd doubt that NAPA or Timken would accept a return. 

The seal comes from Timken, but it's stamped National.  My understanding is that National was gobbled up by Timken, right/wrong?  What I got ( picture) is what Amazon is offering now. So I'm wondering if it is NOS or relatively a new product?  It's stamped as being made in Mexico, but on Amazon it says it's made in China even though you can see Mexico stamped on the seal in the picture on Amazon. 

My point being, has anyone actually received a pinion seal 7216 (or equivalent) from a supplier that was rubber type?  Also I think it should be a double lip seal. 

The tin on the back of that seal looked fairly strong so it might come out fairly easily.  But on the other hand, instead of risking damage, maybe I should pull the yoke off again, and work some neetsfoot oil around the leather and work it in with the end of a small round bar, or even a bic pen.  over and over again until I'm bored to death of crawling under the car over and over again for a week or so with several applications per day.  Then work on trying to track down a rubber type seal, and hope for the best.  If it leaks, at least I'd be ready with the better seal.  

Another thought would be if I did this method, would excessive amounts of neetsfoot oil getting in behind the seal have any effect on the hypoid rear end oil 80/90 that I'll be using? 

[harmony]

9 minutes ago, harmony said:

The seal comes from Timken, but it's stamped National.  My understanding is that National was gobbled up by Timken, right/wrong?  What I got ( picture) is what Amazon is offering now. So I'm wondering if it is NOS or relatively a new product?  It's stamped as being made in Mexico, but on Amazon it says it's made in China even though you can see Mexico stamped on the seal in the picture on Amazon. 

My point being, has anyone actually received a pinion seal 7216 (or equivalent) from a supplier that was rubber type?  Also I think it should be a double lip seal. 

The tin on the back of that seal looked fairly strong so it might come out fairly easily.  But on the other hand, instead of risking damage, maybe I should pull the yoke off again, and work some neetsfoot oil around the leather and work it in with the end of a small round bar, or even a bic pen.  over and over again until I'm bored to death of crawling under the car over and over again for a week or so with several applications per day.  Then work on trying to track down a rubber type seal, and hope for the best.  If it leaks, at least I'd be ready with the better seal.  

Another thought would be if I did this method, would excessive amounts of neetsfoot oil getting in behind the seal have any effect on the hypoid rear end oil 80/90 that I'll be using? 

Earlier I said the tin on the back side of the seal covered most of the leather.  I meant to say it covered the spring, which would be important to prevent damaging it with the puller.  

[Sniper]

Went to the Timken site, looked up 7216, Timken says it's leather.

[harmony]

I think I'll try pulling that leather seal back out tomorrow and soak it as James suggested.

After dropping the driveshaft again and pulling the yoke off again, I realized that I had to modify the ends of my 3 jaw puller to get in between the new seal and the pinion shaft.  The old seal that came out was the new rubber style and the end of the jaw just pushed the rubber and spring aside basically and gripped on the back side of the metal part of the seal.  But with the new one ( above picture )  The end of the jaw has to reach in much further in, due to the depth of the seal.  So I had to file away and narrow the back side of each jaw so it would slip into the spline recess of the shaft.  I also had to grind away the face of the jaw ( the part that touches the inside dia. of the seal) to give it more depth.  After about an hour of filing and checking periodically, because I didn't want to file away any more than necessary, I finally got all 3 to slip in.  

Why Neatsfoot oil though?  Why not soak it in the oil that will be up against the seal for its life span? That being the Hypoid gear oil.   Once the leather is penetrated with oil, it should remain supple. 

Judging by the height of the filler plug, it looks like the level of oil in the differential would come up to about bottom 5th (perhaps) of the leather seal when the car is level. I'm assuming the oil splashes around in there from the movement of the gears as you're driving along, but not that much out at the end where the seal is.  But enough to keep it coated in oil.  I would think if the car sat for a number of years the seal would eventually dry out, except at the bottom of the seal.  Does that sound right? 

I did read that mineral oil shouldn't be used on leather because there are petroleum distillates in it and also it will oxidize and dry out over time. Also Neatsfoot oil compound, should be avoided for the same reasons.  However apparently the 100% pure Neatsfoot oil is ok.  But I saw a label on a bottle of Lincoln 100% Neatsfoot oil, and right there on the label it read, contains petroleum distillates. So of course I'm confused as always. 

 Now I should mention that all this was pertaining to the upkeep of shoe leather. 

I shouldn't think that the leather in the seal would have much exposure to oxygen. 

But as I said, why not soak it in the gear oil? 

[Dodgeb4ya]

It's nearly impossible to remove a installed pinion seal with out damaging it.

[Sniper]

6 hours ago, harmony said:

I did read that mineral oil shouldn't be used on leather because there are petroleum distillates in it and also it will oxidize and dry out over time.

 

Gear oil is a petroleum distillate, so I dunno if this claim applies. 

[harmony]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

Gear oil is a petroleum distillate, so I dunno if this claim applies. 

I was thinking that too as I read it.  Which contributed to part of my confusion.

[harmony]

Rather than pulling the seal, would there be any pros or cons in running a thin bead of grease (Lucas red & tacky) on the raw edge of the leather, as well as rubbing it into the surface area of the leather multiple times? Then just before installing the yoke wiping the wear surface clean and then coating it with gear oil.

[James_Douglas]

Just leave it and see if you get lucky. All the all sources have the bit of oiling and rolling the leather seals. They get tough from sitting just like a new baseball glove. They need to be worked to do their job correctly.

 

If you pull it you will destroy it. Neetsfoot oil is from the feet of cows and is the perfect leather lubricant.

 

I wonder how the new leather seals will hold up as the old seals were tanned with all kinds of hard minerals like chromium and nickle as well as arsenic. I doubt the new seals have that.

 

Of course the trivia question is what does CR Seals stand for...Chicago Rawhide.

 

James

[Sniper]

Neatsfoot oil is much thinner than gear oil, so I think, spitballing really, that once the neatsfoot soaks in it acts as a primer, if you will, that allows the gear oil to keep the leather supple.  Or not, lol.  Personally, I'd look for a lips seal type design that would work.

[kencombs]

I've used it before on my boots but never really knew from where it came.  So I looked it up.  From Wiki:

The lower legs of slaughtered cattle (less the hooves) are boiled, skin and all. The fat that is released (as an oil) is skimmed off, filtered, and pressed. The first pressing is the highest grade; the second produces both a lower grade and a solid press cake or stearin product used, among other things, to make soap

 

 

There's more  info about why it is what is is there also. 

 

Most of it that is available now is not pure as it is extended with other oils.  

 

[harmony]

5 hours ago, Sniper said:

Neatsfoot oil is much thinner than gear oil, so I think, spitballing really, that once the neatsfoot soaks in it acts as a primer, if you will, that allows the gear oil to keep the leather supple.  Or not, lol.  Personally, I'd look for a lips seal type design that would work.

Quite right.  SKF has 18912 that has the same dimensions with the nitrile rubber seal.  So I'll order one in preparation. It was my fault for ordering that National seal and not doing my homework more thoroughly, and finding out it was leather, and also the issues that I "might" have down the road.

[harmony]

5 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

Just leave it and see if you get lucky. All the all sources have the bit of oiling and rolling the leather seals. They get tough from sitting just like a new baseball glove. They need to be worked to do their job correctly.

 

If you pull it you will destroy it. Neetsfoot oil is from the feet of cows and is the perfect leather lubricant.

 

I wonder how the new leather seals will hold up as the old seals were tanned with all kinds of hard minerals like chromium and nickle as well as arsenic. I doubt the new seals have that.

 

Of course the trivia question is what does CR Seals stand for...Chicago Rawhide.

 

James

Yes I agree with leaving it, and see how it goes.  I still have the issue of about .004th. too much end play.  But I'll check it again after a few miles. Finding a place to fix the magnetic base of my dial indicator was a bit tricky, and at one time I noticed it had slight movement as I was taking my measurement,  So I'll take another reading or two for that end play.   

I made a shim for the pinion shaft out of a beer can that is .004  th.  So that should get me where I want to be.  So if the leather seal leaks, it will be a good time to add the extra shim.  

[harmony]

Thanks for all the input, information, and suggestions guys. ?

[James_Douglas]

I am not a big fan of replacing the old leather seals with modern seals in a lot of these applications. Here is why:

 

The leather seals can take a LOT more punishment than the modern seals. The modern seals are designed with THE ASSUMPTION of much more stable shafts and much more consistent surface hardness and surface roughness. These old designs have nowhere near the close tolerances that the more modern cars have.

 

A story. An late old friend of mine, a guru in Jaguar XKE circles, used to club race his early XKE Coupe. He found that when racing it or when coming back down Highway 50 from Lake Tahoe in a spirited drive, that his independent rear suspension would start to leak oil from the shaft seals from the intense heat of the inboard disc brakes. When they cooled down they would drip a bit but he could  live with it until he got around to replacing them. When he tried a set of modern seals they would fail and the car had to be towed home as once they failed they were junk and did not hold any oil at all.

 

This concept also applies to the rear main seals. You can see my old posts. I have a Victor rear main seal that is the two part type. The seal area is 10x wider than the currently available seals from fel-pro or Best Gasket. This seal also has a vulcanized material over the actual seal. More contact patch and more robust material.

 

Sometimes playing mix and match with different engineering era's does not work as expected.

 

James

[Bryan]

Speaking of pinion end play, I've got my drive shaft off and can't feel any by just pulling on it back and forth. Seems to clunk a good bit when rotating back and forth. 

[harmony]

5 hours ago, Bryan said:

Speaking of pinion end play, I've got my drive shaft off and can't feel any by just pulling on it back and forth. Seems to clunk a good bit when rotating back and forth. 

I'll get back to you on this when I tighten up the crown nut for the second time.  First time I had .006th. But then that was before I knew the torque should be about 180 ft lbs thanks to Sniper.  Since I had my crown nut not torqued that much, there might be a different reading this second time.   I'm still rubbing in gear oil on the leather a couple times a day and trying to get as much as I can on the end grain so to say, of the leather.  As for the clunking, someone else might have a more technical observation on that. Once I'm back together I'll check mine for that.

[harmony]

On 12/2/2021 at 11:43 AM, Bryan said:

Speaking of pinion end play, I've got my drive shaft off and can't feel any by just pulling on it back and forth. Seems to clunk a good bit when rotating back and forth. 

I just finished reinstalling my pinion yoke and tightening it to about 180 ft.lbs.  I have .002 th. end play like the manual suggests.  But until I used the dial indicator, it seemed I didn't have any end play at all.  But by pulling and pushing hard on the yoke, indeed I did have .002th.  So it may be the same with yours.  I do have a little play in rotation of the yoke.  But I only heard a clunking noise, before I filled the differential with oil.  So if you had drained your oil prior to hearing that clunking, then perhaps it was just the raw gears hitting each other. But if it was full of fluid, perhaps you might want to check it out further.

[Bryan]

7 minutes ago, harmony said:

I just finished reinstalling my pinion yoke and tightening it to about 180 ft.lbs.  I have .002 th. end play like the manual suggests.  But until I used the dial indicator, it seemed I didn't have any end play at all.  But by pulling and pushing hard on the yoke, indeed I did have .002th.  So it may be the same with yours.  I do have a little play in rotation of the yoke.  But I only heard a clunking noise, before I filled the differential with oil.  So if you had drained your oil prior to hearing that clunking, then perhaps it was just the raw gears hitting each other. But if it was full of fluid, perhaps you might want to check it out further.

Thanks for letting me know. It's been sitting for about 30 yrs in a barn, since the motor started knocking and I was overseas a long time.  Starting the process of getting it running. The rear end is probably empty.  When I get the pinion seal & housing gasket replaced (hoping nothing else is wrong) I'll check it. Gives me hope it's okay.  Never heard any rear end problems when it was running but that was in the late 70s - early 80s.