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Steering arm mystery. WTH happened here? (was Rack and pinion conversions? Tell me about yours.)


Racer-X-

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UPDATE: 11-20-2021

 

Yesterday, I went to work on this car, to test fit and check the new outer tie rod ends and tie rod adjusters/couplers.  That's when I found this:
 

Steering arms.   WTH happened here?

 

Here are the steering arms after I removed them from this car:

 

large.20211119_154352.jpg.bbe937b36d981b

 

The one on top was installed on the right side, the one on the bottom was on the left side.   More pix are in a gallery here: 

 

This looks like a repair that might've been done while the car was in Cuba.  They did have a tendency to use whatever parts they had available to get their cars back on the road. I seriously doubt the factory put one outer tie rod end on top of the steering arm (left side) and one below (right side).

 

There are part numbers on both arms.  You might be able to make out the numbers on the straight (left side) one in the pix.  The next time I go back to work on this one, I'm bringing paper and charcoal pencil to try to "lift" the numbers in a readable form.

 

My biggest question is, what steering arms should be on this car?  What were the originals?  And with the rack and pinion conversion, are there shorter arms available for alternate applications that will bolt on and work better. 

 

The car owner has already asked, "Can your guy at Linkage Solutions make us some matching new arms? Maybe even some that are shorter, to make the turning circle smaller?"   and I think the answer to that is probably, "$ure he can."  I'll have to call him Monday.  OTOH, if there's something available that will work and is from a vehicle in the same weight range, I'd rather use that.

 

From before:

Elvis, my latest project, is a 1947 DeSoto Custom Sedan with numerous mods (notably including a LS1 engine, 4L60E transmission).

 

One of the mods done by the previous owner/builder was a "rack and pinion conversion."  They bought a "kit" that included mounts for a 1990+/- a few years GM rack (J body and N body applications), and some couplers/adjusters to attach the inner tie rods from that rack to outer tie rods for a 2004-2005 Ford Explorer.

 

Looking at the car while resolving other pressing issues (especially in the braking system, more on that in another post soon), I really didn't like the looks of the outer tie rods.  The taper is too small for the steering arm on the DeSoto suspension/steering, and the castle nut was tightened so far down the thing that the cotter pin didn't engage the slots in the top of the castle nut at all. The cotter pin would've prevented the nut from backing off entirely (unless the cotter pin broke), but it wasn't preventing the nut from turning. The threaded adjuster rod also looked small for this application.  The inner male threaded part was M22x1.5 (with left-hand threading), and looked strong enough.  The outer part was M14x1.0 I think, definitely M14.

 

Well, the car was ready to drive, and drove last Saturday evening. The driver hit a pothole, and the threaded tie rod adjuster rod snapped (failed, fractured, separated) on the narrow (14mm) end. We were very lucky, the only damage to the car was a slightly bent wheel and the broken tie rod adjuster piece.

 

Has anyone else used a rack-and-pinion conversion similar to this one?   Is there a better alternative out there?  

 

Right now, the failed part, and the unbroken example from the other side are at a good machine shop, and the estimate is $350+ to make two new tie rod adjusters that match the GM rack inner tie rods, but use the original/stock outer tie rod ends with 11/16-18 male threads on the outer tie rod end. The design is significantly beefier. He's proposing 1-1/8" hex stock, turned down and threaded M22x1.5 left hand male threads on the inner end, and drilled and tapped on the outer end for 11/16-18 right hand female threads to use with a right hand male threaded original tie rod.  We're strongly leaning toward doing this as the car has to drive again next weekend.

 

I'm looking for any other ideas, and also kind of curious if anyone else is using the Ford Explorer outer tie rod ends and would be interested in upgrading to the larger ones we're considering before they experience the same failure.  Here's a pic of the failed part.  It looks like there's a 3M limit for pix, so I'll have to post more pix as replies. 

 

20211115_131120.jpg.1412ab427ee64ce80f9098b2b35ec4f0.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Racer-X-
Updated, New mystery, new questions.
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Here's a pic of the side that didn't fail (yet).  

 

20211115_131450.jpg.f76199c04b2d6118148c8b58813c36d5.jpg

 

Also noteworthy in this pic, the tie rod end is attached to the steering arm with the nut on the bottom and the joint on top.  The right side had the joint under the arm with the nut on top.  I think this side is installed "upside down" at the outer end.

 

And, yes, that's brake fluid on the inside of the wheel. That leak at the caliper is being addressed as well. This one also has a very poorly made and poorly installed "disk brake conversion" as well. More on that once we get the steering sorted out and safe.

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I did extensive research into Rack and Pinion solutions for my 1947 Desoto Suburban. After talking with Flaming River as well as Uni-Steer I cam to the conclusion that it was not going to work.

 

In my case it was the road trip weight of 5000 pounds. NONE of the Flaming River or Uni-Steer units were engineered to work on a cars over 3500 pounds.

 

So, it is not a big surprise that something snapped. People have done it with the Cavalier Racks and the like, but I will not chance it.  Imagine what would happen at say 65 MPH going down a maintain pass if something snapped?

 

I am going to do a better than factory rebuild of a stock steering box and then cut the column and use electric power steering. One could also do what Don Smith did and it is well documented as well on this site.

 

One hint to 1946 to 1948 Desoto owners is that I got Steele Rubber to use their "NASCAR chassis blend" to make the steering isolators rather than their regular blend and it has a much higher durometer value and is more oil resistant. Works much better and the steering feels more "tight". You can see my old posts on that subject for more info.

 

Good luck.  James

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Rack and pinion have a place.  I have 3 vehicles with them and they drive great.  But, (there's always one of those, right), they are prone to leakage and wear..   I am a huge proponent of recirculating ball steering, especially the power version.   I have never seen one badly worn or needing replacement.  Maybe a pitman shaft seal and that rarely.  When those replaced the worm and pin units in the 50s and 60s,  it was a huge step forward.  And not parts store, or warehouse had to stock rebuilt or new replacements as is the norm for R&P.   Most of the reasons for R&P in newer stuff have to do with compact size, weight savings and overall cost reduction, not because they perform better in daily use.

 

Rather than engineering at  new linkage arrangement around an R&P unit, a recirculating ball unit that closely resembles the original can almost always be located.

 

In my case, '56 Dodge low bed side 1/2T, a unit from a mid/late 80s Toyota pickup can be installed in such a way as to use the original drag link.  The gear can be placed so that the pitman shaft is in the same place as the original.  A new arm will be needed (or the original Toy item modded) but that is all.   I'll be using a GM tilt column to get the collapsible feature as well as column mounted, self-canceling turn signals and dimmer switch so mating up is easy using mostly factory parts.   Ujoint and shaft of a Mitsubishi truck (identical to many Japanese vehicles) and a double D shaft.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, kencombs said:

Rack and pinion have a place.  I have 3 vehicles with them and they drive great.  But, (there's always one of those, right), they are prone to leakage and wear..

 

 

Tell me about  it...1992 Dodge Dakota about 2 years ago. What I learned is it is best to install a new unit, hoses and PS pump to make sure the system is internally clean.

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28 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Tell me about  it...1992 Dodge Dakota about 2 years ago. What I learned is it is best to install a new unit, hoses and PS pump to make sure the system is internally clean.

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The rack in my 94 lasted almost 200k miles. You can't complain about that too much. We'll see how the replacement does when I get the truck back on the road. 

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My setup probably isn't much use to you as I'm in Australia, but my car uses an Austin 1800(front wheel drive bigger version of the BMC Mini) rack & pinion that I narrowed 9", I also have shorter steering arms to address the common problem using rack & pinions, ie, that of a reduced steering tie rod "throw" so that my car has a decent turning circle.....brakes are 11" Oz PBR vented discs with the mopar bolt pattern rear brakes are 11" non vented discs on the 1990 Oz Ford rear axlethe rack has been in my car since the late 70's, the 318 Poly V8 since 1973, I've owned the car since 1971, 50yrs last September......its probably travelled 20,000 kms since I built it, so far without any issues........the steering arms are the stock Austin 1800 threaded into 1" dismeter steel bar stock that have machined adjusting flats, with Oz Valiant tierod ends threaded into the bar stock and the correct taper for these tierods in the shortened steering arms.......regards, Andyd         

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1 hour ago, kencombs said:

Rather than engineering at  new linkage arrangement around an R&P unit, a recirculating ball unit that closely resembles the original can almost always be located.

 

I'm really not sure that's an option on this one. This car has  a long history of "work arounds" and modifications.  It lived most of its life in Cuba. There's definitely some Cuban repairs evident on it, with parts substitutions and "home made" parts used in some repairs. 

 

Then it was brought to the USA and spent some time in a Cuban owned custom shop in Miami.  There it got a beautiful (looking) interior, a LS1 swap (allegedly from a Corvette, which might be true, but the engine itself has some significant modifications), a 4L60E transmission, new 12V electrical system, Air Conditioning, this rack and pinion conversion and some other stuff.  The best thing I can say about the work done in Miami is those guys really knew their stuff with Upholstery and interior trim.  That part looks beautiful.  The wiring looks like it was done by an Upholstery and Interior craftsman.  The fuel system and engine wiring looks like it was done by an Upholstery and Interior craftsman.

 

At some point either the shop in Miami, or the owner who took this car there (the story isn't really clear) ran out of money and/or talent and sold this incomplete "project car" off. It was bought by some folks in North Georgia.  They had a couple of mechanics working on the thing.  One is no longer available, out on I believe 10 years leave of absence, unless that gets shortened for good behavior.  The other guy was a personal friend of the owner's who I refer to as "Bubba's brakes and mufflers." He did the brakes and exhaust, and it would've been better and much easier if I started with nothing than it is repairing and redoing his work. The brakes are another huge mess on this one, worthy of their own thread.

 

It's an unusual situation.  The interior must be kept immaculate. The only interior mod possibly on the horizon is rear seat air conditioning. Rear seat passenger comfort and luxury are top priority.  Safety and reliability are also very high priorities.

 

"Restoration" to original specs isn't even on the list of necessities or even the "nice to have" list. Driver comfort and driver information is low priority.   Some of the gauges don't work, but according to the owner, none of his "antiques" have working speedometers or fuel gauges, so that's to be looked at only when everything else is done.

 

As for the steering,  I don't have the original steering unit. I don't have the center idler arm.  I don't have any of the original steering stuff.  The engine mounts and the exhaust headers are filling a lot of the space where the stock steering gear was originally located.  Even if I could source something that would work, it probably wouldn't fit in the car now. The "conversion" rack barely fits in there with the exhaust.  It only clears the exhaust header collector by about a quarter inch.

 

Right now, I've been talking with Turn One Steering up in Saginaw about the rack, the pump, and the fact that we'll be adding a hydroboost power brake booster to the system, along with a new (different) master cylinder. The folks I've been talking to there seem to think the rack we have will be adequate, although it may need to go to them for a rebuild and some modifications. I'm actually picking up another rack core to send them for that. We're almost certain to need an upgraded pump.  The question on that is whether something from an application like a Chevy Express Van (which had hydroboost brakes and power steering and when fully loaded down was closer to the weight of this car), or if we'll need one of their modified "high performance" units.
 

Enough rant.

 

@Bryan, that looks like a pretty good setup on that Dakota.   I do agree with you about using new (ish) parts, and keeping the entire fluid circuit fresh and clean. The current rack in ours looks like an untouched junkyard unit.  The power steering pump (and all the belt driven accessories on this thing) look like they came from some Chevy truck, again, they look mostly like junkyard pulls. I'm definitely going with new or rebuilt units for all of that over the winter when we upgrade the brakes. And I'll keep this thing a lot cleaner when putting it back together.

 

And @Andydodge, your setup looks really good.  It looks like you have a very well sorted old school "resto-mod" there that's built well and has already lived and driven long enough to be an antique in its own right. I can only hope that I can build something that will last as long as yours has.

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5 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

I did extensive research into Rack and Pinion solutions for my 1947 Desoto Suburban. After talking with Flaming River as well as Uni-Steer I cam to the conclusion that it was not going to work.

 

In my case it was the road trip weight of 5000 pounds. NONE of the Flaming River or Uni-Steer units were engineered to work on a cars over 3500 pounds.

 

So, it is not a big surprise that something snapped. People have done it with the Cavalier Racks and the like, but I will not chance it.  Imagine what would happen at say 65 MPH going down a maintain pass if something snapped?

 

I am going to do a better than factory rebuild of a stock steering box and then cut the column and use electric power steering. One could also do what Don Smith did and it is well documented as well on this site.

 

One hint to 1946 to 1948 Desoto owners is that I got Steele Rubber to use their "NASCAR chassis blend" to make the steering isolators rather than their regular blend and it has a much higher durometer value and is more oil resistant. Works much better and the steering feels more "tight". You can see my old posts on that subject for more info.

 

Good luck.  James

why you continue to believe that trash after the number of times you were told here that R&P does exist for heavy vehicles.....Curb weight: 4,600 lbs. Gross vehicle weight: 8,550 lbs. Max cargo capacity: 247 cu.ft. Payload: 3,950 lbs. Towing Capacity: 5,000 lbs.  simple little Dodge product also....I would trust this engineering concept from the factory way better than anything you could dream up.....

 

 

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13 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

why you continue to believe that trash after the number of times you were told here that R&P does exist for heavy vehicles.....Curb weight: 4,600 lbs. Gross vehicle weight: 8,550 lbs. Max cargo capacity: 247 cu.ft. Payload: 3,950 lbs. Towing Capacity: 5,000 lbs.  simple little Dodge product also....I would trust this engineering concept from the factory way better than anything you could dream up.....

Is there an online source for those numbers?   I've been looking (in truth, not very hard yet) for that info for our 1947 DeSoto Custom Sedan.

 

51 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Lot's of R&P threads sprinkled about here.  I like this one

 

 

 

Awesome thread.  I'll probably post over on that one as it seems like the kit discussed there (including this post from back in March) is what was installed in this car. It looks like we'll pay more for the stronger tie rod adjusters/couplers than the entire kit originally sold for. 

 

There was an email from the machine shop when I signed in this morning.  Looks like he worked late last night on this "rush job," and he has the new parts ready to pick up already. That's also awesome!  Makes me a bit sorry I asked for a reprieve on getting Elvis on the road by this evening, and blamed it on last week's driver. I might've been able to make it. Welll, maybe not really.  I just checked and the jam nuts for the new tie rods are still on schedule for delivery by USPS mail tomorrow (Saturday) or Monday.

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18 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

I did extensive research into Rack and Pinion solutions for my 1947 Desoto Suburban. After talking with Flaming River as well as Uni-Steer I cam to the conclusion that it was not going to work.

 

In my case it was the road trip weight of 5000 pounds. NONE of the Flaming River or Uni-Steer units were engineered to work on a cars over 3500 pounds.

 

So, it is not a big surprise that something snapped. People have done it with the Cavalier Racks and the like, but I will not chance it.  Imagine what would happen at say 65 MPH going down a maintain pass if something snapped?

 

I am going to do a better than factory rebuild of a stock steering box and then cut the column and use electric power steering. One could also do what Don Smith did and it is well documented as well on this site.

 

One hint to 1946 to 1948 Desoto owners is that I got Steele Rubber to use their "NASCAR chassis blend" to make the steering isolators rather than their regular blend and it has a much higher durometer value and is more oil resistant. Works much better and the steering feels more "tight". You can see my old posts on that subject for more info.

 

Good luck.  James

Most any 1/2T pickup made in the last 20years would serve as an adequate donor.   many weigh more than that, empty.   Even my first new truck, '87 Dakota, had a R&P gear.   And, it was the same unit as many Chrysler corp cars of that era.

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"why you continue to believe that trash after the number of times you were told here that R&P does exist for heavy vehicles.....Curb weight: 4,600 lbs. Gross vehicle weight: 8,550 lbs. Max cargo capacity: 247 cu.ft. Payload: 3,950 lbs. Towing Capacity: 5,000 lbs.  simple little Dodge product also....I would trust this engineering concept from the factory way better than anything you could dream up....."

 

****************

 

I have never stated that there are not rack and pinon units that were built for vehicles over 3500 pounds.

 

I have stated that units that are custom build that have the exact correct geometry, as specified by the well documented body of knowledge on rack and pinion units, cannot be manufactured by the leading companies that do this kind of work for cars over 3500 pounds.

 

Now if one want to take something that came from a vehicle that is over 3500 pounds and put it in a car and compromise on the all or some of the calculated angles then by all means they can do that. They may end up with some bump steer, they may have a crappy turning radius, or they may bend a tie rod as they did not have the correct length for the spring travel.

 

When I had A SUSPENSION ENGINEER a decade ago double check my numbers on a couple of the rack and pinion's that are in fact from cars that are in the weight class I would need the ball angles, the length of the rack and the like were not close to what is needed on a 1947 Desoto.

 

There is a difference between something working and being correct. As evidenced by the this failure at the top of this thread.

 

I would feel much more comfortable using the stock steering, and if I needed power assist using the electric motor solution, as if the motor is off the stock steering is still intact.  I also would consider Don Smiths solution as it does not mess with the actual steering geometry in the front end. 

 

When someone shows me a rack and pinion that is rated for 5000 pounds AND shows a full blueprint showing that all the angles are correct for the control arm lengths the pivot points, and the spring travel for a 1940's MOPAR over 3500 pounds---I will demure. Until then, I stand by my conclusions.

 

James.

 

 

 

 

 

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to say one has been specifically designed with the the tie rods and mounts as a bolt on I will concede that it does not exist....but as that will not ever be done to my thinking due to the non popular model you drive you DO have a basic starting point....the rack itself.  There are some very unique setups out there in the auto world with R&P and Ackerman angles that are extreme in a manner....but one would have to going constantly in a high speed circles to see the negatives effects.

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I had a very busy day yesterday. It started with picking up some parts from the machine shop to repair the damage shown in the (original) opening post on this thread.  Here's one quick picture showing the failed parts (left), the parts from the other side of the car, from the "Rack and Pinion conversion kit" that haven't failed (yet), and the parts I'm installing to replace the failed parts and the parts on the side that hasn't failed yet.

 

large.20211119_111620.jpg.b29e76f52ef256

 

I've added an album of images for this.  There are more pix at 

 

 

Moving on to today's mystery, it's the steering arms.  I'm also adding this to the opening post and changing the title on this to reflect my new questions.

 

Steering arms.   WTH happened here?

 

Here are the steering arms removed from this car:

 

large.20211119_154352.jpg.bbe937b36d981b

 

The one on top was installed on the right side, the one on the bottom was on the left side.   More pix are in a gallery here: 

 

This looks like a repair that might've been done while the car was in Cuba.  They did have a tendency to use whatever parts they had available to get their cars back on the road. I seriously doubt the factory put one outer tie rod end on top of the steering arm (left side) and one below (right side).

 

There are part numbers on both arms.  You might be able to make out the numbers on the straight (left side) one in the pix.  The next time I go back to work on this one, I'm bringing paper and charcoal pencil to try to "lift" the numbers in a readable form.

 

My biggest question is, what steering arms should be on this car?  What were the originals?  And with the rack and pinion conversion, are there shorter arms available for alternate applications that will bolt on and work better. 

 

The car owner has already asked, "Can your guy at Linkage Solutions make us some matching new arms? Maybe even some that are shorter, to make the turning circle smaller?"   and I think the answer to that is probably, "$ure he can."  I'll have to call him Monday.  OTOH, if there's something available that will work and is from a vehicle in the same weight range, I'd rather use that.

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  • Racer-X- changed the title to Steering arm mystery. WTH happened here? (was Rack and pinion conversions? Tell me about yours.)

About the arms:   I don't have a reference to quote, nor do I know the exact model and years, but one tie rod end up, the other down was done on some mopars in the 50s.  Factory installed.

 

My guess as to why the adapters failed is a poor choice of material and/or poor machining.  If they left a sharp inside corner where the diameter changed that is a stress riser and will eventually cause breakage, especially if they use a low carbon/mild steel. 

Edited by kencombs
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58 minutes ago, Racer-X- said:

I seriously doubt the factory put one outer tie rod end on top of the steering arm (left side) and one below (right side).

 

That is exactly how my 51 Plymouth is.  Looking at the parts manual, your 47 Desoto uses the same part number arms as my 51 Plymouth, so I am going to say it's factory.

 

Part numbers

Left 1118112

Right 1118111

 

The numbers on your arms might be forging numbers not part numbers though.  Went out and looked at my arms, no numbers on them that I could see and they are all cleaned up.

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TIL

52 minutes ago, kencombs said:

About the arms:   I don't have a reference to quote, nor do I know the exact model and years, but one tie rod end up, the other down was done on some mopars in the 50s.  Factory installed.

OK, so it's possible that I have original parts for this.   That just seems so weird.

 

25 minutes ago, Sniper said:

 

That is exactly how my 51 Plymouth is.  Looking at the parts manual, your 47 Desoto uses the same part number arms as my 51 Plymouth, so I am going to say it's factory.

 

Part numbers

Left 1118112

Right 1118111

 

The numbers on your arms might be forging numbers not part numbers though.  Went out and looked at my arms, no numbers on them that I could see and they are all cleaned up.

 

The numbers I can almost make out in the pix I have of the left arm looked to me like "11312" on one line, and below that "1216".  

 

For the top number, "11812" is also very possible, which is close to the number you have for the part number (missing a couple "1" digits).

 

This car has been a huge learning experience for me, and I've been working on it now for only about 3 weeks.

 

56 minutes ago, kencombs said:

My guess as to why the adapters failed is a poor choice of material and/or poor machining.  If they left a sharp inside corner where the diameter changed that is a stress riser and will eventually cause breakage, especially if they use a low carbon/mild steel. 

 

An engineer friend and the best expert I know on metallurgy looked at this and said it was a classic "tension overload" failure.  The part was pulled so hard it broke at the weakest point. The tension load to cause that type of failure varies with the cross sectional area of the part (the square of the diameter for a round section part), and at 14mm major diameter on the threads, this part was just too small for the load. So it was a very poor choice of parts for the outer tie rod, and insufficient strength (from the part being too thin) in the outer half of the "coupler" piece, which was machined to match the poorly chosen outer tie rod.

 

On the original part that failed, there is a radius where the hex section is turned down to the round threaded part. I should've take a pic of the other side of the fracture.  One part of the fracture was right at the very end of the threading, and the engineer said that was most likely where the fracture started. The end of the threading didn't cause the fracture, the fracture was because of the overload.  But once the overload is applied, the break has to start somewhere, and usually it starts at the weakest point, which on this piece was the start of the threading on the narrower end of the part.

 

46 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

many front suspension parts are NOT cut threads but similar to aircraft industry should be rolled threads as they do not weaken the metal with fractures as machine cutting does....hard to guess at the failed unit without a cause analysis.  

 

Bolts almost always have rolled threads. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure about mass produced suspension parts like tie rod ends. The shape of the assembly for those doesn't always make rolled threads the easiest option. 

 

The part that failed was part of a kit made by a fabrication shop in NC, and I'm pretty sure the threads on that piece were cut.  I'm not sure if they were lathe cut, or if the piece was lathe cut to round and then the threads cut with a thread cutting die. The end of the threads on the other side, and on the other piece look more like poorly finished lathe cut threads than a cutting die.

 

My replacement part has lathe cut male threads, and the final thread of the male section has the cut tapered very gently over almost a full turn. There will always be a stress raiser at the end of the threading, but the method used is the way to minimize that stress. Also, the replacement part has a much larger radius where the thing starts widening to the hex section, and that widening section is cut at 45° to the axis of the part, rather than being cut sharply to a 90° angle.

 

I'm hoping we'll have my engineer friend do a full analysis on this to certify that the part is safe in this application, and that we should never have this type of failure again.  For most of you, this is a hobby, but for me, with this car, this is actually a business.  Not just me working on it as a professional mechanic, but the car itself is also a business asset with its own revenue stream and it's own risk profile/liability profile.   A failure like this can't happen again.  I've been chastised a bit that it happened this time, although I still haven't done a complete inspection of this car yet. I've been chasing "fires" and other safety critical issues.

 

Many thanks to everyone who has responded on this thread and for all of the helpful advice I've gotten here.

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12 minutes ago, Dave72dt said:

Tell owner to stay out of the potholes.  Factory engineered steering linkage has failed when subjected to unusual forces.

We've had that discussion with the driver. 

 

I also believe the driver when he says he didn't see the pothole.  This happened at night, and this thing has some godawful Chineseum "projector headlights" with Amazon toy LED thingies (that are blindingly bright in all the wrong places) in the sockets instead of proper H4 blulbs.  

 

Owner is currently contemplating my recommendation for some proper Cibie/Valejo headlamps and Phillips XTreme Vision H4 bulbs.

Edited by Racer-X-
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The shape of the pictured steering arms is factory stock due to the "dogbone" shape of the stock pitman arm which has one tie rod end attaching from above and the other from below to enable the pitman arm to have full unobstructed travel left to right.........using the "undropped" or straight type of steering arm on both sides is possible and quite o/k to accommodate a rack & pinion........

...............however an issue arises in using a rack in place of a steering box due to the reduced "throw" that racks tend to have resulting in a reduction in turning circle.........

...........this can be overcome by the use of custom made shorter steering arms which then allow the racks shorter throw to move the arms sufficently to allow for a "normal" turning circle..........

............another method is to mount the stock steering arms 1 bolt forward on the stub axle bolts which effectively "shortens" the distance between the tierod attachment and king pin pivot again resulting in a normal turning circle........

............and the third method is to shorten the steering arms which I had done by an Automotive Blacksmith 45 yrs ago.........

.............I used a rack & pinion due to space limitations after trying to accommodate the original steering box and not finding any steering box that would fit......the rack & pinion fitted and worked, initially it was a stock width rack from a Morris Minor then replaced with a stronger, narrowed 9" Austin 1800 rack about 5 years later and still working fine.........andyd.    

Edited by Andydodge
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