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Jacquiline, My 1946 Plymouth Special Deluxe


OUTFXD
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On 6/23/2022 at 10:02 PM, OUTFXD said:

Ground to battery .12

Battery to Solonoid .07

Solonoid 8.01 at rest.      3.30 starting <??>

Solonoid to battery .12

Why are you getting an ohms reading of 8.01 at the sol? What terminals are you checking across?

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16 hours ago, JerseyHarold said:

Just a guess, but can the engine have an internal coolant leak that hydrolocks it and makes it difficult to crank?

The engine being hard to crank was an initial worry of mine as well (I was worried about Partial Baring Seize) .  Coolant level stays the same and no steam from the exhaust.   It just takes one piston to fire and she is off to the races,  I have stopped worrying about the engine cranking.

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8 hours ago, SteveR said:

Why are you getting an ohms reading of 8.01 at the sol? What terminals are you checking across?

Its been months since I did the drop tests so I honesty dont remember which terminals. I want to say Ignition to Battery.

 

The one that came on the car is the only one that would turn the engine in the slightest.  The Cheap amazon one (Made in china with metric threads and bolts)  and the built in USA one would just click.  A week or so ago I was attempting an morning first start (Fuel pump was bleeding fuel at night so I would have to start with a dry fuel bowl and Fuel filter)  After a few seconds I got a poof of smoke off the solenoid and It refused to do anything)

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12 hours ago, OUTFXD said:

The one that came on the car is the only one that would turn the engine in the slightest.  The Cheap amazon one (Made in china with metric threads and bolts)  and the built in USA one would just click.

I know we have been here before but what is missing/

Clicking would indicate that the sol is 12 vdc. Your 6vdc would not be strong enough to overcome the spring inside the sol contacts or your not getting 6vdc at the sol from the Starter switch..

Question: How old is your starter switch? When depressing the starter switch what is your ohms reading across the starter terminals?

What happens when you connect the battery direct to the starter, will the engine turn over?

What is the voltage at the starter from the Key and when depressing the starter switch what is the voltage to the sol?

Are your connections to the sol correct?

It's got to be something simple.

Edited by SteveR
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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, SteveR said:

I know we have been here before but what is missing/

Clicking would indicate that the sol is 12 vdc. Your 6vdc would not be strong enough to overcome the spring inside the sol contacts or your not getting 6vdc at the sol from the Starter switch..

Question: How old is your starter switch? When depressing the starter switch what is your ohms reading across the starter terminals?

What happens when you connect the battery direct to the starter, will the engine turn over?

What is the voltage at the starter from the Key and when depressing the starter switch what is the voltage to the sol?

Are your connections to the sol correct?

It's got to be something simple.

I will try to answer your questions in order.

 

The Cheap solenoid from China Might be questionable.  but I made dang sure the US one was 6v.  My theory is that there is a partial short or something in the Starter itself (field coils come to mind) that is causing a voltage drop.  Hence the Solenoid click.

 

I have replaced the Battery Cables with 0/1 gauge custom cables.  I have added new 12 gauge ground cables battery to body and Battery to Starter,  I have purchased two new solenoids,  I have purchased a new Key switch,  I have purchased a new Push Button,  in a fit of frustration I bought a new 6v Battery.  Some times when I replaced a Part the starter would act normal for 3 or so Starts then start to drag again.  I have even used a "got no friends" switch to bypass the start button.

 

Bypassing the solenoid with jumper cablesdoes nothing.

 

I will have to get back to you with the ohm readings.

 

The solenoids would only work with the battery cables hooked on one way,  reverse them and nothing happens at all.

 

Its not Rocket science, Its babies first Electric Circuit.  Three Wires, a switch and a motor.  I have replaced everything SAVE the motor. The motor has be gone through by "Professionals" four times.  When you replace all other parts, What ever is left over, however improbable, must be the problem!

 

Ive been at this since last August. I am well and truly Frustrated

 

 

 

Edited by OUTFXD
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31 minutes ago, OUTFXD said:

I have added new 12 gauge ground cables battery to body and Battery to Starter, 

 

 

 

 

Is that a typo or are your ground cables actually 12 gauge?

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Posted (edited)

I believe so, They are significantly smaller than the 0/1 gauge cables  I could be mistaken on this point.

 about as big around as my ring finger.

 

edit:  Cant find the reciept.  Must be 2 gauge instead of 12 gauge.  Sorry,  To much time in the sun.

Edited by OUTFXD
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A sol is just a switch being turned on by electricity. Basically, it is in two parts, an electromagnet and contacts (switch) Apply voltage to the coil (electromagnet) and the contacts (switch) close. To open the contacts the coil has to discharge (no voltage to it) and a spring will then open the contacts. A clicking comes from the voltage to the coil fighting against the spring. In other words, the voltage applied to the coil can not completely overcome the spring. This will happen even if the motor was disconnected. The motor should make no difference to the coil clicking. 

 

"Bypassing the solenoid with jumper cablesdoes nothing."

something is wrong here. if you take the - side of the battery to the starter terminal it should turn over. If it does not then try taking the + side to the starter if it turns then you have a - ground instead of a + ground. Change those cables around.

 

When using a digital multimeter to check voltage make sure you have the + &- leads correctly positioned on the + &- sides you're checking. It is possible to turn the leads around and still get a 6vdc reading except it will be a -6vdc

 

"The solenoids would only work with the battery cables hooked on one way,  reverse them and nothing happens at all."

Sol uses a small current (starter button) to turn on a large current draw (starter). Because we are using a dc current the COIL will operate either way. Changing the BATTERY connection will make a difference. Think of it as two separate operations. a small current energizes a coil and the contacts close, This allows the large current to flow from the battery to the starter

Edited by SteveR
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Looking at the photo of the solenoid, don't forget that the solenoid has to be grounded to operate.   The low-amp circuit goes from the start switch to ground.  This closes the heavy duty switch inside the solenoid. The heavy current goes through the solenoid to the starter, then to ground.  (Then the "grounded" currents flow through the engine and ground cable back to the battery. )

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11 minutes ago, DonaldSmith said:

Looking at the photo of the solenoid, don't forget that the solenoid has to be grounded to operate.   The low-amp circuit goes from the start switch to ground.  This closes the heavy duty switch inside the solenoid. The heavy current goes through the solenoid to the starter, then to ground.  (Then the "grounded" currents flow through the engine and ground cable back to the battery. )

Usually the body of the sol is the ground, but that brings up a question does the body of the sol have a solid ground or is it on a painted or rusty surface?

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15 hours ago, SteveR said:

A sol is just a switch being turned on by electricity. Basically, it is in two parts, an electromagnet and contacts (switch) Apply voltage to the coil (electromagnet) and the contacts (switch) close. To open the contacts the coil has to discharge (no voltage to it) and a spring will then open the contacts. A clicking comes from the voltage to the coil fighting against the spring. In other words, the voltage applied to the coil can not completely overcome the spring. This will happen even if the motor was disconnected. The motor should make no difference to the coil clicking. 

 

unless There is a short in the starter itself.   Press the start button and power flows to the coil. It reaches appropriate voltage and closes the circuit. *click*  Power flows to the starter, which shorts causing a voltage drop.  The Solenoid looses Voltage and opens the circuit.  Voltage returns to normal.  The coil reaches appropriate voltage and closes the circuit. *click*  repeat the cycle *click* *click* *click* *click*

 

anyways, this is what i *Imagine* is happening.  but then again I am not an electrician so I could be completely off base.

 

I will try your suggestions this afternoon and let you know how it goes.

 

 

How a solenoid works in my head.

Solenoid 1.jpg

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Tried reversing the leads on the battery,  got a quiet click click click,  Let it charge over night to be sure the battery wasnt weak,  Next day tried it with a full charge and got click click click.

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57 minutes ago, OUTFXD said:

Tried reversing the leads on the battery,  got a quiet click click click,  Let it charge over night to be sure the battery wasnt weak,  Next day tried it with a full charge and got click click click.

What model # and brand is the solenoid?  Humor me.

Because when I first looked for a solenoid, Rock Auto, O'Reilly etc all listed this as the correct one for a 1948 Dodge, but IT WAS WRONG -> was 12V.  https://p15-d24.com/topic/56791-horn-relay-dimmer-switch-solenoid-to-buy-or-not/?do=findComment&comment=610811

 

 

This is correct, a 6V solenoid. What I actually bought.  https://p15-d24.com/topic/56791-horn-relay-dimmer-switch-solenoid-to-buy-or-not/?do=findComment&comment=610813

 

 

 

Edited by Bryan
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10 hours ago, OUTFXD said:

Tried reversing the leads on the battery,  got a quiet click click click,

You reversed the leads, From where? Have you tried taking a jumper from the neg to the starter post directly, bypassing the relay? If so what happened?

 

Troubleshooting is nothing more than eliminating things. Let's eliminate the starter first. Take a jump lead from the negative battery terminal directly to the starter terminal. It should spin. Make Sure You're NOT IN GEAR!

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10 hours ago, Bryan said:

What model # and brand is the solenoid?  Humor me.

NAPA   PN   nw786102  I think.

 

27 minutes ago, SteveR said:

You reversed the leads, From where?

From the positive terminal to the negative Terminal on the battery and vice versa.

 

Have not directly jumped  from the battery to the starter this month,  Ill try again and see what happens.

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1 hour ago, OUTFXD said:

From the positive terminal to the negative Terminal on the battery and vice versa.

Ok I am assuming this is to the coil of your relay and you get the click click click. Switching the polarity on a coil will make no difference. We are back to it looks like you have a 12vdc relay in your 6vdc car. 6vdc is not strong enough to keep the contacts closed on a 12vdc relay. Coils, which is what you energize to close the contacts don't care if they are Positive ground or Negative ground. Your starter does though. However, it looks like you may have a poor connection between your relay and where it is mounted. I would remove the relay and clean it back to shiny metal on both the relay and where it is mounted. A poor connection could be the problem.

 

Red is Positive and Black is negative. In your photo, It looks like you have the Positive to the relay. There are 2 wires coming off the Red terminal what are these and where do they go? ) The center post should go directly to your starter switch. Forgive me if I am saying anything you already know

 

I see that you have an alternator. It reads '6vNEG ground' Is your electrical system changed to negative ground? This could explain why you have a Red(+) cable to the relay.

Edited by SteveR
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3 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

The above photo IS NOT of the original poster's car. That photo is my P15 and it works perfectly.

Ah, sorry Sam I thought it was OUTFXD

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