I gave up, trans O/D issue

[laynrubber]

So for several summers the overdrive I “rebuilt” did not have reverse. It had it for awhile but then nothing.  Checked linkage, did lots of reading, messed around, ended up driving it about 2000 miles with no reverse. Last summer the car sat and never moved. Mrs was getting pushy about this and I tried to sell the car this summer….stating there was a reverse issue. Of course there was  no buyer. So 2 weeks ago I conceded and pulled the gearbox and overdrive out and found a transmission shop in the city that claimed to know about these. 
The shop called and asked more questions, they said right away they could reverse on the bench. Well I know I went through lots of linkage checks all with no result. They said a gear was smashed up really bad….I think I know when that happened. I confessed it also ran low on lube for a long highway run and so I agreed for them to tear into it. Today he called and said the overdrive drum is pretty worn. When I was in there several years back doing a “rebuild” I really had no idea what I was doing. 
So now I am waiting to see what this is going to cost me, but I will have peace of mind an expert will be rebuilding it and Mrs has settled down a bit thinking it is getting fixed. 

[Greg51T&CWagon]

You're aware overdrive, when engaged, locks out reverse?  -assuming you have an R10 B&W.

[greg g]

Just to be safe you shouldn't engage reverse when the cable control is in the overdrive enabled position.  Mine does

not seem to have the loch out working. So I always pull out the cable while waiting for the garage door to open. Or when anticipating a situation that will require reverse.

Edited September 30, 2021 by greg g

[laynrubber]

You're aware overdrive, when engaged, locks out reverse?  -assuming you have an R10 B&W…..

Yes it is the B&W R10 and I am aware of that operation. I really figured the issue was something inside the gear box, shift rail or something. When I go to the city next time I am stopping off to the trans shop (probably to drop off the first payment in a gold brick ?) and I will see the busted parts. 

[RobertKB]

1 hour ago, laynrubber said:

When I go to the city next time I am stopping off to the trans shop (probably to drop off the first payment in a gold brick ?

 

 

I really like your attitude. Willing to pay to play. If it works well, you’ll love it! Good luck with the project!

Edited October 1, 2021 by RobertKB

[Greg51T&CWagon]

Oh well, so not that simple. Keep us posted on what they find. 

[laynrubber]

I am kind of stuck on that, the trans has to be fixed as few will want to buy a one direction capable car ?, if it costs $1500 the car is still only worth hopefully $7000. I briefly thought about other options, the only option might be to put the 3 speed tail shaft back on and sell it without OD but it really needs to have OD. I will post the outcome…..

[martybose]

Are you saying that you bought the OD tail section and bolted it to a standard 3 speed gearbox? That would be a problem, because the 3 speed box was modified for use with the OD unit by extending the shifter shaft through the the rear bulkhead into the OD unit so that if you shifted into reverse the extended shaft also locked out the overdrive so that it wouldn't freewheel.  So an OD unit should only be used with the 3 speed that was mated with it.

 

Marty

[laynrubber]

I bought a complete R10, tore it apart, a new front bearing and probably a couple other new somethings what ever I could find to buy…can’t remember all now and then reassembled it. The first couple drives I could not get the overdrive to engage…..but it did reverse for a little while. I did have linkage adjustments to fine tune at first to get reverse so I have done adjustments. Turned out I had a bad solenoid for the OD.  I converted the car to 12 volts and bought a new 12 volt solenoid from Mr Asche and his wiring harness…..then I had OD. That made the car great to drive having the OD working and I did have a couple of reverse operations but it was random. Select reverse, ease clutch out ….. nothing happened. Then a time or 2 I did have reverse but the last summer we drove the car…..2000 plus miles, it was all only fwd.

[laynrubber]

Well the transmission shop called and we have a verdict….B.E.R. beyond economical repair. The inside is chewed up I do not recall all the discussion but I did focus on the estimated $3200 to rebuild it. 
So that one is done, options are…..$1000 to $1300 to make it back to a good 3 speed (I still have the correct case and tail case). Not my first choice but if it ends up being this I will sell the car. It’s no good to drive on the highway like this, I believe that sped up the engine demise earlier. Around town it would fine but I do a 4 hour highway drive just to get anywhere.

Other option is the T5 adventure. I could sell the remnants of the OD (12 v solenoid, relay, OD scrap pieces) I will drive around town this weekend checking out where I remember some Mustangs are sitting derelict (one should be my daughters old 89 that had a 5 speed). This might also lead to a rear end change out also as the driveshaft is a ball and trunnions style, which I would like to get rid of as well. This will not be a cheap option either but I would keep the car then.

I know of an R10 rebuilt for $1700 but this American and then shipped to my location….might not be a good deal once it is done.

Any other options ?
 

[Sniper]

Fix it yourself.  It's obvious from the price quote to put it back to 3 speed that they are charging a lot for labor.  Especially if you delivered the pulled transmission to them for repair.

[Plymouthy Adams]

unfortunately if you do not do your own work on these cars many things quickly can push it into the Beyond Economical Repair regions.  Sad part is even the at home novice following his book has as good and maybe better chance of long lasting repair than some of these repair shops.  Their guarantee ends when it leaves the lot as nothing is their fault and there is so many factors that they can blame for their failure.

[plyroadking]

Did you get pictures of the parts that need replaced? If its just the overdrive or trans guts then you're in luck. The only "critical" parts are the cases, main shaft, and output shaft. Everything else is "cheap" to replace, the trans gears all interchange with standard 1940-1955 Plymouth transmission parts, and most all the overdrive parts interchange with "cheaper" ford/gm r10 overdrive units. I've got a stack of them that are my source for od parts anytime I open up a mopar unit that needs something replaced. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by plyroadking

[James_Douglas]

1 hour ago, plyroadking said:

Did you get pictures of the parts that need replaced? If its just the overdrive or trans guts then you're in luck. The only "critical" parts are the cases, main shaft, and output shaft. Everything else is "cheap" to replace, the trans gears all interchange with standard 1940-1955 Plymouth transmission parts, and most all the overdrive parts interchange with "cheaper" ford/gm r10 overdrive units. I've got a stack of them that are my source for od parts anytime I open up a mopar unit that needs something replaced. 

I have found the the balking gear and rings can be hard to get. Used ones all day. New ones very very hard to get.

 

The balking gear and ring are critical for the proper operation of the OD. It works on a friction principle and after years of use the ring digs a groove into the gear. Once it wears enough the unit starts to not shift "sharply" and reliably.

 

One part that is hard to get is the little bronze thrust spring that slows down the main shaft. If one is using fluid drive it is of particular importance as the weight - momentum of the unit really needs it.

 

The other issue I have seen is the three speed main shaft, which is different for overdrive applications, tends to wear on the face where the 2nd gear rides. This is at the edge of the fluted section. Even with an NOS second gear that wear can be such that you cannot get the second gear end play within specification even when using the largest snap ring that will fit. I had to have the rear of my second gear Industrial Hard Chromed on the rear face to make up for the main shaft wear. It has been quiet for over 50K miles.  Last year, after 10 years of an ebay search running, I found an NOS main shaft and am saving it for my second unit I will rebuild in the next year.

 

Now I use my car all the time, it is not an occasional thing, it is out daily driver so I want and expect all the transmission parts to meet the factory specifications on a rebuild. I had to pay Frank Mitchell a small fortune for an NOS balking ring and gear.

 

I probably spent about $1500 on NOS parts plus my labor to build an as good as new three speed and BW overdrive.  The actual work on it is not very difficult. It is however a lot of little things that all need to be done correctly. Of course one can use what appear to be good used parts and do it for less cost. But then one takes a chance that something will make some noise or not last 50K miles.

 

James

 

 

 

[dpollo]

Sounds like a real tale of woe.   There are several clues as to why reverse would not engage hidden in the correspondence above.  

 

First, does reverse engage in the main box  but will not drive the car ?  If so, the shift rail is not locking the overdrive unit out.

In this case, when the overdrive is manually locked out, reverse should work.

 

Second possibility is that the solenoid is energized so reverse cannot be selected.  In this case, when electrics are disconnected, reverse will work.

 

Third is if the shift rail for low  is not engaging the overdrive lockout rail there is either a part missing or some internal interference due perhaps to the front case not being the one designed for use with overdrive although the only difference I have found is an oil delivery passage.

 

What you need to do is pick up your overdrive and RUN, don't walk and find yourself a mechanic who is willing to read the shop manual.  These are simple mechanical devices and EASY to service.    I am in Canada, but a long way from you otherwise I would show you how to do it and guarantee it will work.

[DJ194950]

As said all the gears of the 3spd. trans you have also work in the OD tans cases..

 

Also as said just the main shaft of the OD trans does Not interchange and the OD only pieces also are hard to find.

 

Call to George Ashe who  also repairs these OD trans and some stock of parts these days as George is elderly and  is currently working??  Been doing this some years.

 

Phone only per older posts, but these days? Hopefully someone will give a current update.

 

BTW, George  is upper Pa if I remember right, I am not sure these days!  ?

 

DJ

[Bryan]

18 hours ago, laynrubber said:

 

Any other options ?
 

I wonder how much changing the ring and pinion ratio in the rear end would help instead of an overdrive. 4.1 seems high..my 1992 Dodge Dakota had a 3.2 in it, I changed it to 3.9 (first time ever), woos a little but not loud.  Ring and pinion sets (for my truck) were about $300. Carrier & pinion bearings weren't that much..  I don't know much about the D24 Dodge rear ends..and if ring/pinions are available.     Some things are doable yourself.   Having the time, a clean space to work in and the proper tools.  

[Bryan]

BWRebuild (devestechnet.com)    and   Garage Tech with Randy Rundle: Borg Warner R-10 and R-11 Overdrive Tech Tips...The Odds and Ends (fifthaveinternetgarage.blogspot.com)        Garage Tech with Randy Rundle: Borg Warner R-10 and R-11 Overdrives Part Two (fifthaveinternetgarage.blogspot.com)  don't know whether any of this helps..

[Booger]

4 hours ago, DJ194950 said:

As said all the gears of the 3spd. trans you have also work in the OD tans cases..

 

Also as said just the main shaft of the OD trans does Not interchange and the OD only pieces also are hard to find.

 

Call to George Ashe who  also repairs these OD trans and some stock of parts these days as George is elderly and  is currently working??  Been doing this some years.

 

Phone only per older posts, but these days? Hopefully someone will give a current update.

 

BTW, George  is upper Pa if I remember right, I am not sure these days!  ?

 

DJ

I think George has moved on to greener pastures

[laynrubber]

All good suggestions and thank you. I did trouble shoot the reverse issue before I took it apart. I thought it might have been the shift rail so I did manual lock out the OD and tried to back out of the garage….no joy.

The solenoid was changed, so a new 12 volt one was installed. I know it did click on and off.

The gear box is the correct one for OD, this I had learned when initially building it. 
The weird part is reverse DID work after initial assembly. I will admit there was some grinding and growling during a couple test drives. I did adjust linkage to ensure gears were being engaged “deep” enough. I did run the assembly low on lube too on a highway run….the shop diagnosed that right away.

As for the shop’s reputation I fully trust this guy, his resume is full of vintage stuff, high horsepower stuff too. I could take my collection of parts home but at this point I am gun shy of doing this again.

I have talked with Mr Asche 3 weeks ago and he does have a rebuilt unit for sale and if I was closer with the American dollar without a doubt I would buy it. I was at his shop a few years ago on a side visit when we flew to Niagara Falls.

Trying to remember what the shop said about damage was certainly run low on oil (my bad on that one $$$$), a gear on the cluster is damaged and the reverse gear is missing a tooth.

I might be warming up to running a smooth shifting 3 speed again …… maybe a rear gear change if I’m going to keep it.  Trying to remember what ratio I have…..

I will keep anyone interested posted as I go…….

[plyroadking]

Here's a planetary gear set I found in one of my overdrives, not sure what the previous owner did to make it occur. Took half a day of gentle prying to get the overdrive disassembled. I robbed everything out of a $40 ford overdrive transmission to repair it, that was probably 55,000-60,000 miles ago and it's giving me no issues. I'm more than happy to pull a ford unit apart and send parts for your mechanic to put in your case. I've also got good used transmission gears all over the garage, I do not want to get rid of the shafts though. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Running the rear OD case low on oil will destroy the planetary gear set as shown above. Not to mention the sun and annulus gears too.

And yes they are a job to remove.?

[Sniper]

4 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Running the rear OD case low on oil will destroy the planetary gear set as shown above. Not to mention the sun and annulus gears too.

And yes they are a job to remove.?

 But would that affect going into reverse?  I'll admit I know very little about how the R10 works hence the question.

[laynrubber]

Low oil was a problem after I had no reverse. The low oil came from a bolt that was missed by me on the case. I took the car on a 3 hour run and at my destination I saw a mess of oil. Topped it up and then part way home I topped it up again but I guess the damage was done.

[martybose]

My 47 spent a couple of months with the nose of the car jacked up real high so that I could get the steering box out to have it rebuilt.  When I got it back I reinstalled it, let the car down and went for a drive.  What I didn't notice is that a lot of the oil from the OD section had drained out through a bad tailshaft seal.  I made it about a minute in overdrive before there was a load bang and the car started jerking badly.  I stopped the car, locked out the OD by pulling the cable, and drove home.  Found a place that could fix it, cost me over $1000.  Le$$on learned.

 

Marty

 

PS Even with the OD blown up I had no problem engaging reverse.