Alan Vogel Posted August 24, 2021 Report Share Posted August 24, 2021 Is it true you can change rods, crank and flywheel on the 218 to 230 parts and gain horsepower. And if you change to dual exhaust do you have to go to dual carbs. I just got (inherited) a 37 2 door Dodge and would like to keep as close to stock as possible but be able to drive it on the highway without holding up trafic. Just trying to learn about the options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted August 24, 2021 Report Share Posted August 24, 2021 Welcome aboard from Oztralia..........as far as I know the only physical difference between a 217.8 engine and a 230 cube one is the stroke that went from 4 & 3/8" to 4 & 5/8" in the 230, the bore was the same in both size engines at 3 & 1/4"..........the 1938 engine had 6.5 compression with 87hp........in 1942 it went to 6.7 compression, 230 cubes and 105hp..........but if it was me I'd increase the compression(assuming that it hasn't been done previously) by milling a few thou off the head......as for the exhaust.......you can get a pairr of cast iron "Fenton" headers either original....$$$$$ or repops and then run a full dual system thru say a 2" exhaust & performance mufflers ...or do what I was going to use on the 230 I was building and get an extra exhaust manifold and modify it so that I effectively had a pair of cast iron headers, see pic........if you don't want to install twin carb setup then maybe just an adaptor to allow something like a WW Stromberg 2 barrel carby going into the stock intake..............the final use of the 230 in Plymouths in the late 1950's had 8.0 compression, a 2 barrel carby and 140 hp...........one more thing tho' even if you get another 20-30 hp out of the engine the final drive gearing may still mean that the engine is revving fairly high to keep up with or ahead of traffic......an overdrive or rear axle ratio change maybe required.............anyway hears a pic of the engine I was building for the 41 Plymouth Coupe I had.......ended up selling car & engine before installing it with a Chev S10 T5 Overdrive gearbox.........I'd suggest you go thru this forum and checkout the various threads on here and you'll get the hang of it ............Andy Douglas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkestes41 Posted August 24, 2021 Report Share Posted August 24, 2021 (edited) Yes you can change crank and rods to make your 218 a 230. One other thing you have to change is the flywheel as the rear flange on the 230 crank is thicker than that of the 218. If you don't change flywheels your starter will not engage properly. The other option is to have your 218 flywheel machined to compensate for the extra flange thickness or machine the starter mounting face on your bellhousing. Likely the easiest thing to do would be to just find a 230 and swap it in place of your 218. Should be a direct bolt in swap and nobody would ever know the difference unless they checked the number stamped on the front drivers side of the block just below the head. Heck if you check the number you may find that the engine currently in your car is not the original anyway. Many of the flatheads were swapped out over the years as the old original got tired. I went from a 218 in my 48 Plymouth coupe 95HP stock to a 57 model 230 which was 135HP stock and there was a very distinct seat of the pants increase in power and drivability. As Andy said above an Overdrive or rear gear swap will also help greatly to cruise at highway speeds. I installed a 53 Borg Warner R10 Overdrive in the 48 and it would cruise at 75mph all day long. However, it was a column shift so with your floor shift 37 you might want to look into the T5 swap from an S-10 pickup. The old flatheads can be very reliable engines when built correctly and treated right. They also draw some attention at shows when parked among the sea of small block chevys. Here is the 230 I built for my 48 which I sold a few years back. I now have a 37 Plymouth coupe with a 360/727. Edited October 14, 2021 by hkestes41 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted August 24, 2021 Report Share Posted August 24, 2021 11 hours ago, Alan Vogel said: Is it true you can change rods, crank and flywheel on the 218 to 230 parts and gain horsepower. And if you change to dual exhaust do you have to go to dual carbs. I just got (inherited) a 37 2 door Dodge and would like to keep as close to stock as possible but be able to drive it on the highway without holding up trafic. Just trying to learn about the options. Alan: Ok so you want to increase the power of the engine. What type of driving are you basically looking to do with the car? Are you looking to cruise down the road at 55 MPH or looking to be in the 65 and above range?. So if you are cruising at the higher speeds its all not just engine power. There are other important things that would also need to be considered such as: Brakes you have a single line drum braking system with shoes, what about the rear end basically probably stock. Trans and driveshaft, front steering old bias ply tires just to name a few basic money items. Are you planing to drive alot at night might think about that major issue and how to have enough amperage to run sealed beams so you do not outdrie your headlights. So before you begin your tear down thibng about the total project that you want to accomplish, figure in a cost for parts, cost to install the parts and all modifications to the car to support what you want to do and the cost of the basic car that you are starting with. I have a 39 desoto that has the bigger 25 inch block. I can cruise comfortably all day long between 50-55 MPH. It still has the original braking system and I am comfortable with the slower speeds and I get to relax and enjoy my drviing. So baiscally think about the above things and then decide what you persoanally want and can afford to accomplish. I might be cheaper to just go out a purcahse an already completed Hotrod and then just drive the heckout of the car and you can use it right now over the complete down time and cost before you can enjoy the car. Just my 25 cents worth of input. Rich Hartung desoto1939@aol.com 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Vogel Posted August 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2021 Thanks for all the great info guys. Lots of good ideas. I knew about the gearing change and will be doing that. I like the idea of the VW CARB, I have friends that can probably hook me up. Hkestes41 That's one beautiful engine, I would head to that type of look and clean. I just might look for a 230, I have friends that might even have one. Love dual exhaust. I have seen the front brake disk brake kit and sounds like a good idea. As for speed I would like to be able to go to some events within 150 miles of me (Hershey) without renting a motel room LOL, maybe the next project will be a teardrop trailer lol. I do have a question about the rear gear change. When you say swiping out an S10, do you mean just the gears and maybe some machining or do you mean swapping out the whole rear end. Thanks guys lots of good stuff here. I'll post a couple pics next time. Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booger Posted August 24, 2021 Report Share Posted August 24, 2021 (edited) a 218 will send you down the road with no issues with the proper gearing or an R10. If you live in a mountain region, that could be an issue. If youre a flatlander,no worriesa 230 is and upgrade, yes. Brakes, suspension are essential. Roll up your sleeves Edited August 24, 2021 by Booger speling 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted August 25, 2021 Report Share Posted August 25, 2021 3 hours ago, Alan Vogel said: Thanks for all the great info guys. Lots of good ideas. I knew about the gearing change and will be doing that. I like the idea of the VW CARB, I have friends that can probably hook me up. Hkestes41 That's one beautiful engine, I would head to that type of look and clean. I just might look for a 230, I have friends that might even have one. Love dual exhaust. I have seen the front brake disk brake kit and sounds like a good idea. As for speed I would like to be able to go to some events within 150 miles of me (Hershey) without renting a motel room LOL, maybe the next project will be a teardrop trailer lol. I do have a question about the rear gear change. When you say swiping out an S10, do you mean just the gears and maybe some machining or do you mean swapping out the whole rear end. Thanks guys lots of good stuff here. I'll post a couple pics next time. Thanks guys. Alan: Where do you live. I assume somewhere in Pa. i live near valley forge pa and have driven to Hershey. I go to Hershey every year and have a vendor site. Ornage field row AD site number 7&8. If you come to this years Hershey please stop by the site and say hello. Rich Hartung desoto1939@aol.com 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allbizz49 Posted August 25, 2021 Report Share Posted August 25, 2021 At one time these cars were new and people drove them every day. I still drive them every day, just saying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted August 25, 2021 Report Share Posted August 25, 2021 (edited) I’m looking to go backwards lol. Hoping to install a 4.11 rear end! Geared too tall at 3.90, plus mine has OD too. I just drive it as much as I can. Edited August 25, 2021 by keithb7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted August 25, 2021 Report Share Posted August 25, 2021 Alan.......couple of things........mopars from the mid 30's thru to at least the late 50's even maybe later used Borg Warner Overdrive gearboxes when an O/D was ordered ex factory...problem is these are NOT cheap now plus used various electrical solenoids etc to work and accelerator connections..........BUT the reason I wanted to use a Borg Warner T5 from the Chev S10 pickup is that , yes they need an adaptor to bolt on BUT they are completely self contained, require NO external electrical connection and have a forward mounted gear xtick that suits mopars using a stock bench seat, there are both GM and Ford versions as well as a range of gear ratios, they have been the 5 speed/overdrive gearbox of choice for maybe 15-20 years behind various Ford, mopar and GM older engines..BUT, yep are NOT a stock choice, but they do work well......... .................the Carby I mentioned is the 2 Barrel WW Stromberg or even the 2 Barrel Carter BBD whicxh also has the same bolt pattern as far as I know.........I did NOT refer to any VW carby......lol........... .................Tom Langdon from Stovebolt Engineering is the USA has developed a twin carb setup using Weber 2 barrel carbys but these are NOT ex VW, and are what Hkestes41 installed on that very nice red mopar engine......... .......................I'm in Australia and was going to use a pair of Oz only single barrel Bendix/Stromberg carbies that were a common thing on Oz GM six cylinder cars in the 50's to 70's........... ...................also if the gearbox is swapped for a non mopar gearbox, ie a T5 or similar then you LOOSE your handbrake as its attached to the end of the stock mopar gearbox or mopar overdrive gearbox which means that to have a handbrake/parking brake or emergency brake with a T5 or similar gearbox you have to swap the complete REAR AXLE, drum to drum with something with the parking brake inside........... ................also brakes............you have a 37 Dodge, which has a pair of semi elyptic from springs and a tube axle.......I know that disc brake kits are availble in the USA for mopar independant front ends from 1939 but am NOT sure if one is available for the "beaam" axle style that your car has..........it shouldn't be that hard to adapt but as with anything like this........one change can lead to needing another............at the very least installing a remote booster in the stock brake system should be something to do.......... ...............heres a pic of my 1940 Dodge, had it for 50 years in 3 weeks.....been a hotrod since 1973, 318 poly,4 wheel discs etc, etc...........regards andyd. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Vogel Posted August 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2021 Desoto 1939 I live "down the beach" near Bethany Beach in Delaware. I came from Media when my family moved here in the early 60's. My ancestors are all from the Brandywine area, built the Newlin Mill in fact. I am going to stay at a cousins house in West Chester and ride in to Hershey a couple times. I will definitely look you up. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted August 25, 2021 Report Share Posted August 25, 2021 50 minutes ago, Alan Vogel said: Desoto 1939 I live "down the beach" near Bethany Beach in Delaware. I came from Media when my family moved here in the early 60's. My ancestors are all from the Brandywine area, built the Newlin Mill in fact. I am going to stay at a cousins house in West Chester and ride in to Hershey a couple times. I will definitely look you up. Thanks I grew up in Secane and went to Ridley HS graduated 1969 just off of South Ave near Lady of Fatima Catholic Church. Know the area very well and did alot of bicycling in the Brandywine area and know the Newlin Mill. I went to Wesley college in Dover,Del Looking forward to seeing you at Hershey. Rich Hartung Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Vogel Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 My Dad went to Ridley Township HS back in the day. I would have graduated from Penncrest in 68 if we had stayed there. It's a small world eh lol. My great grandfather was a Newlin, worked in the mill as a kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Vogel Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 ANDYDODGE I get what you are saying. Makes sense. Looks like I have a lot of good options. Right now I'm working on an electric vehicle for my sister. Kinda like a golf cart. 32/ 56'' wheelbase. As soon as I finish that I'm jumping in to the Dodge . Always wanted to see Australia, it's on my bucket list but my bucket is getting shallower lol (I'm 72 ) Thanks for all the great info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted August 27, 2021 Report Share Posted August 27, 2021 When I was growing up......some would say that hasn't happened yet...but I digress.......when I was growing up I wanted a T Bucket...........but the 1940 Dodge was only $15 so thats what i got.....and I needed it to provide the spare parts for the 1940 Oz Dodge coupe I'd had already for 2 yrs & pulled apart.......so no T bucket and after realising that the 4 dr sedan was too good for parts I decided to restore then hotrod it..........still got it 50 yrs later.........but still no bucket........but you never know.......lol............andyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Riding Posted August 27, 2021 Report Share Posted August 27, 2021 On 8/24/2021 at 9:34 PM, keithb7 said: I’m looking to go backwards lol. Hoping to install a 4.11 rear end! Geared too tall at 3.90, plus mine has OD too. I just drive it as much as I can. I will be swapping out the 4.11 ring and pinion from my '40 wagon and going to a 3.54. It's yours if you want it, although shipping to the frozen, north-of-the-border, might get spendy... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Riding Posted August 27, 2021 Report Share Posted August 27, 2021 On 8/24/2021 at 5:49 AM, hkestes41 said: Yes you can change crank and rods to make your 218 a 230. One other thing you have to change is the flywheel as the rear flange on the 230 crank is thicker than that of the 218. If you don't change flywheels your starter will not engage properly. The other option is to have your 218 flywheel machined to compensate for the extra flange thickness or machine the starter mounting face on your flywheel. Likely the easiest thing to do would be to just find a 230 and swap it in place of your 218. Should be a direct bolt in swap and nobody would ever know the difference unless they checked the number stamped on the front drivers side of the block just below the head. Heck if you check the number you may find that the engine currently in your car is not the original anyway. Many of the flatheads were swapped out over the years as the old original got tired. I went from a 218 in my 48 Plymouth coupe 95HP stock to a 57 model 230 which was 135HP stock and there was a very distinct seat of the pants increase in power and drivability. As Andy said above an Overdrive or rear gear swap will also help greatly to cruise at highway speeds. I installed a 53 Borg Warner R10 Overdrive in the 48 and it would cruise at 75mph all day long. However, it was a column shift so with your floor shift 37 you might want to look into the T5 swap from an S-10 pickup. The old flatheads can be very reliable engines when built correctly and treated right. They also draw some attention at shows when parked among the sea of small block chevys. Here is the 230 I built for my 48 which I sold a few years back. I now have a 37 Plymouth coupe with a 360/727. Beautiful P4! Do you know what type of paint was used? I may want to paint my '52 Suburban that color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted August 27, 2021 Report Share Posted August 27, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Bob Riding said: I will be swapping out the 4.11 ring and pinion from my '40 wagon and going to a 3.54. It's yours if you want it, although shipping to the frozen, north-of-the-border, might get spendy... I may take you up on that offer. Pending a used parts scouting mission on Sunday. I've been trying to hook up with a guy who stripped down a 37 Dodge 4 dr sedan, to hot-rod it. It may have had a 4.11 rear set. That's likely in the sedan model. I hope to acquire it. In addition to a lot more spare parts. We'll see. We've been trying to hook up for the past 3 weeks. So far our schedules clash like first and reverse gear on the countershaft. Fingers crossed. If not, yes indeed I may pay the postage to ship your 4.11 set to me. A mighty kind offer from you. Thank you. The cool part is I have a spare 3rd member here with 4.30 or so gears if I recall. It came out of a '38 Royal Sedan. I could bang it apart, put a 4.11 set in it. I'd remove the 3rd member with the 3.90 set in my 38 Royal now. Then hot-swap in the rebuilt spare 3rd member with 4.11 gears and all new bearings! Plus I'd gain a ton of experience. I've yet to overhaul a diff and C&P. I know I'll enjoy that. Edited August 27, 2021 by keithb7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 I love the 4.11 or 4.3 diff in my 37 mc Dodge tourer, I drive it like an automatic transmission, very little gear changing around town. Even pull away from standing still in 2nd gear. I can almost come to a stop and it will still pull away It's perfect for my art deco tour, never drive it on the highway. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 @maokthat sounds right up my alley. If the 4.11 doesn't pan out I'll consider the 4.30. Would be a fantastic low RPM cruiser in town. Where 98% of my driving is done. I have OD for the hi-way on the rare occasion that I go on it. I'm not overly interested in going over 50 mph in a stock car from the 1930's. Sure my Chrysler will certainly go faster, it's just the sudden stop that I think about. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Riding Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 15 hours ago, keithb7 said: I may take you up on that offer. Pending a used parts scouting mission on Sunday. I've been trying to hook up with a guy who stripped down a 37 Dodge 4 dr sedan, to hot-rod it. It may have had a 4.11 rear set. That's likely in the sedan model. I hope to acquire it. In addition to a lot more spare parts. We'll see. We've been trying to hook up for the past 3 weeks. So far our schedules clash like first and reverse gear on the countershaft. Fingers crossed. If not, yes indeed I may pay the postage to ship your 4.11 set to me. A mighty kind offer from you. Thank you. The cool part is I have a spare 3rd member here with 4.30 or so gears if I recall. It came out of a '38 Royal Sedan. I could bang it apart, put a 4.11 set in it. I'd remove the 3rd member with the 3.90 set in my 38 Royal now. Then hot-swap in the rebuilt spare 3rd member with 4.11 gears and all new bearings! Plus I'd gain a ton of experience. I've yet to overhaul a diff and C&P. I know I'll enjoy that. Lots of options, for sure. My son has said he wants to help me so it will happen. I've never replaced the innards...I guess the gear cluster comes out as a unit once you remove the axles? I'll check my back episodes of Keith's Garage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Bob Riding said: Lots of options, for sure. My son has said he wants to help me so it will happen. I've never replaced the innards...I guess the gear cluster comes out as a unit once you remove the axles? I'll check my back episodes of Keith's Garage! Yes pull brakes then you can get backing plate and then axles. Once you have the axles out the whole diff comes out. It's a quick swap. Verify both have the same side gear count by trying axles in new diff before install Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 @Bob Riding My spare 4.30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 Cosmoline is your friend, lol. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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